[uucdigest] Monday, June 23 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6497
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] Stuff for sale [uuc] E36 Control arms - Comment & Question RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 [uuc] Re: Hawk Blue vs HT-10 [uuc] <WOB> Test [uuc] <WTB> E34 rear muffler [uuc] I'm baaaaack.... Thanks to those who helped RE: [uuc] <e36><m3> Track Pads Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:14:07 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] Stuff for sale Garage sale time: 1. e34 M5 oil cooler: $250 2. e34 brake air ducts with brackets: $30 3. e34 stock springs: $75 4. e36 factory bra: $50 5. e36 factory back seat seat protector: $50 6. e36 white front turn lamps: $30 7. e36 UUC clutch stop: $15 8. MSD-6a used: $75 9. Accusump 2qt, electric valve: $200 10. RD e36 M3 sway bars: $200 11. 2 Bridgestone RE-72 245/40ZR-17 50% tread: $100 both 12. m50 (non-vanos) motor (est 230 hp/186 @ rear wheels), 208,xxx miles Korman mod head, schrick intake cam, lightweight f/w, wiring harness, stock and mod ecus, stock cams and f/w: $1500 13. PF 01 pads sized 731/732 (c5 corvette), nearly new $200 14. PF Z pads sized 731/732 (c5 corvette), nearly new $200 Buyer pays shipping from Va, prices are negotiable. Contact me off-list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:11:45 -0400 From: "Chris Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] E36 Control arms - Comment & Question Hello all, I had a successful DIY weekend, replacing the control arms in my '94 325i with '95 M3 arms and bushings. Things went better than I expected. As usual, I had no trouble with the parts that were supposed to give me problems, but stumbled on the stuff that I expected to be easy. I had zero problems separating the 4 ball joints. Stuck in the pickle fork, bang-bang-bang-'pop'. I had a heck of a time, however, wiggling the bushings over the control arms. Soaped 'em up good, stood over the arm while I put as much weight as I could on the bushing while wiggling back and forth, and got nothing but sore hands from the ordeal. Note that my weight is not light. 220+ pounds. Ended up with the control arm in a vice to hold it steadier, standing on a chair, and doing the same thing until I finally got it. I didn't get everything put back together in 1/2 hour as I've seen recommended, but I don't expect it to be an issue with the '95 solid bushings as I don't think they can really twist out of position much. Suggestion - make sure the ball joints are seated while tightening the nuts. I spent waaay to long turning the driver's side inner ball joint nut 1/8th of a turn at a time until I realized the stud was spinning in the ball joint. A couple medium wacks on the bottom of the ball joint took care of that. Question - Is there any danger of over tightening the ball joint nuts? Obviously, you can't get a torque wrench on any of them, and it's hard to tell how tight you're getting them with such poor access (on the inners, at least). I'm assuming the design doesn't allow for over tightening to affect operation of the ball joint, but I am frequently wrong. I find that screwing things up in an expensive manner makes me learn them more effectively. All in all, I got everything apart in a little over an hour, and put things back together in an hour. Much better than I expected. If I had more time I would have taken my first stab at an alignment as well. I went for a little neighborhood drive and, apart from my new toe-out condition, immediately noticed the improvement. Just backing off the driveway at an angle I noticed that the usual clunk as the driver side tire drops off the curb is completely gone. Things just feel a lot more solid and connected than before. I'm almost feeling brave enough to tackle subframe bushings. Chris B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:23:41 -0400 From: "Money, Jack (J.J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Gary, I understand what you're saying. I was thinking that spring rate would be apart of how much weight could be transferred but I guess that would not be true. Rather spring would affect how much deflection there was due to the transferred weight but not how much weight is actually transferred. The amount of weight transferred is not dependant on spring rate as stiffer springs will simply not allow as much deflection for the same transfer. My car no doubt has different weight transfer than a stock M3 due to the modifications I've made to it, both weight and static weight distribution and thus a relocation of the CG. Now I'm going to have to dig out my VehDyn books and reread them to reaquaint myself with the math. Dammit, threads like this are forcing me to spend time studying! ; ) Jack Money '89 325iX #86 JP M3 Elephant Motorsports - -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 The way I see it, only wheelbase and CG height affects steady state weight transfer under braking. How quickly the weight transfers under dynamic conditions is affected by anti-dive and damping. A large amount of anti-dive transfers weight immediately with brake force. Less anti dive causes the weight to transfer more slowly, as the car pitches forward. Gary Derian > Pick up any modern vehicle dynamics book, they will at least have a place to > start as far as tire adhesion limits. As I said, it's been years since I've > done the math but I do recall doing braking force diagrams. And you will > still need suspension characteristics to properly calculate weight transfer. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:24:14 -0400 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Hawk Blue vs HT-10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hmmm... I found the opposite to be true, the HT-10s have more initial bite. > They do like more heat than the Blues though <snip> I've actually autoxed > Ben's 332iS with HT-10s and had NO problems even w/o heat on the pads, > the Blues tend to have that scary first application where you have no brakes > until they heat up. Carlos' experience in my 332iS (E30 w/3.2l & E36 325 brakes) is the same as mine - the HT-10's bite harder than the Blues & are consequently a bit harder to drive smoothly until you get used to them. with agressive use - i.e. racing or drivng by racers - the HT-10's will put a _lot_ of heat into the rotors. my car got driven ~200 miles in a day at VIR last Sept (11 of 16 sessions IIRC) by myself, Simon, Jack & Stommel. after this and a day of driving at Grattan by Jack & myself the rotors were getting nice & crackly after that. note that this was w/o ducts, but Simon has run into the same sort of cracking with his E30 M3 (very close to the same amount of rotor mass) with ducts, so it may just be the ability of the pads to generate the heat & function with it which is beyond what the rotors can handle over time. I will continue to run the Blues as they're cheaper than the HT-10's & I'm not racing. R-4's are a great pad to start with when you get sick of the dust from stock pads, but since the Blues are cheaper & better, I don't see them as being something to buy repeatedly, esp if you're racing, where I think you would overheat them as compared to the Hawks. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:24:55 -0400 From: "KMS - Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <WOB> Test Sorry for the WOB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:45:57 -0500 From: "Alex Cagann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <WTB> E34 rear muffler Need a rear muffler for a 93 525iT. Used is preferred. Any considered. Alex Cagann http://www.autoconsortium.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:36:47 -0400 From: "KMS - Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] I'm baaaaack.... Thanks to those who helped Got the mail configuration problems sorted thanks to a lot of input from list members. Many of you didn't get personal replies, but I thank you anyway. Brett Anderson KMS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:41:23 -0700 From: Donn Vickrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] <e36><m3> Track Pads Hi Jack Thanks for your feedback. Perhaps it would help if I could provide a little more context. I've never had a problem being outbraked - not in my previous series any how (Spec RX7). And unfortunately, I can't tell you a thing about the new T2 car as its maiden voyage is this coming weekend. I've just never liked the blues. Call it personal preference. But, pad feel was IMO poor (compared to some other pads I've tried) and they used to eat Spec RX7 rotors at a ferocious pace. Still, they were the only pad that lasted the entire race in the Spec 7. So, I used them anyway for about five years. My philosophy on brake pads is that you want just the right amount of harshness (my term for how hard it is on rotors) to best suit your driving style, car, setup, and track. Based on these variables, the "best pad" will vary somewhat. Unfortunately, I didn't have much luck with the Porterfields on the Spec 7 either. Twice, on two different tracks (both the hardest on brakes in our division), new pads wore completely down before the end of the day. So, I gave up on those... At least for the 7. Strangely enough, in my only track sessions in an M3 (a few years ago in my street car at the time), I ran a completely stock car (even stock pads) on the harshest track (for pads/rotors) and had no trouble at all. The brakes held up well. Unfortunately the rotors warped... But that's another story. Any how, I am always looking for an alternative to the blues. If that's all that will work on the car, then so be it. But, if others have had success with another pad, then I may try it just to see if I can get the combination of attributes that I'm looking for. - -----Original Message----- From: Money, Jack (J.J.) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 6:54 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [uuc] <e36><m3> Track Pads Donn, I find it surprising that you want to move DOWN in pad compounds but I suppose I don't know your situation so I can't say for sure. But, to answer your question, if you think the Blues are too much pad I would highly recommend trying the Porterfield R4. It's a great intermediate to advanced level pad. However, depending on application, I would not race on it, I just don't think it's strong enough personally. And frankly, a T2/IS M3 is a heavy car as far as race cars go. The HT-10's that many have recommended are the cat's ass I think (haven't tried the HT14 or HT15, I think my car is too light for them and I don't have much downforce to speak of) but they're a step above the Blues, both in torque and temp range. If you feel the Blues are too much pad now you certainly don't want the HT10's or higher, you'll wear them out faster and they'll kill your rotors. My suggestion is to reevaluate your braking technique. Are other racers in your class consistently outbraking you? What are others running for pads? I would check with your competition, assuming they're friendly on info sharing, and figure out where you're at compared to them. Are you running a biased pad set up...meaning a lighter compound in the rear vs. the front? What happens when you go into a corner too hot...do you push or does the rear end want to come around? What about high speed transition corners where you require just a tap of the brakes....does it cause the car to be very unsettled? Perhaps brake pad bias can help you. How about some more info about your tracks, your car set up, etc. Good discussion, I'd love to continue it! Jack Money '89 325iX #86 JP M3 ----> brakes just fine for a stock class car Elephant Motorsports - -----Original Message----- From: Donn Vickrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] <e36><m3> Track Pads Acck. I always forget at least one question. I'd also like to get some opinions on track pads. I'm currently running Hawk Blues. I've run them for years on other racecars but am not completely crazy about them as they are pretty hard on rotors. Unfortunately, they were the only thing that worked consistently on Spec RX7s. What other pads have M3 racers had good luck with. The tracks around here are pretty easy on brakes. So, I probably can go with a slightly milder compound than the Blues. Thanks in advance. Donn Vickrey Scottsdale, AZ 98 IS/T2 M3 race car 02 996TT daily driver 03 Navigator tow vehicle and tot hauler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:46:05 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Damping, bump on front and rebound on rear affect weight transfer rate more than springs, as does polar moment of inertia on the lateral axis. If one were doing an F1 car, all this detail stuff would be important. For an E30, do what feels good. This stuff is dealing in the tiny fractions compared to basic CG and wheelbase. How quickly you stomp on the pedal has a large effect also. A good driver will adapt to the vehicle and apply the brakes at a rate consistent with the pitch damping and weight transfer. Gary Derian > Gary, > > I understand what you're saying. I was thinking that spring rate would be > apart of how much weight could be transferred but I guess that would not be > true. Rather spring would affect how much deflection there was due to the > transferred weight but not how much weight is actually transferred. The > amount of weight transferred is not dependant on spring rate as stiffer > springs will simply not allow as much deflection for the same transfer. > > My car no doubt has different weight transfer than a stock M3 due to the > modifications I've made to it, both weight and static weight distribution > and thus a relocation of the CG. > > Now I'm going to have to dig out my VehDyn books and reread them to > reaquaint myself with the math. Dammit, threads like this are forcing me to > spend time studying! ; ) > > Jack Money > '89 325iX > #86 JP M3 > Elephant Motorsports > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Derian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:55 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > The way I see it, only wheelbase and CG height affects steady state weight > transfer under braking. How quickly the weight transfers under dynamic > conditions is affected by anti-dive and damping. A large amount of > anti-dive transfers weight immediately with brake force. Less anti dive > causes the weight to transfer more slowly, as the car pitches forward. > > Gary Derian > > > > Pick up any modern vehicle dynamics book, they will at least have a place > to > > start as far as tire adhesion limits. As I said, it's been years since > I've > > done the math but I do recall doing braking force diagrams. And you will > > still need suspension characteristics to properly calculate weight > transfer. > > > ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6497 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | |==================================================== | Turner Motorsport Inc . 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