>I didn't call the US government undemocratic -- I called your >*political
>system* undemocratic. The two-party system is democratic >in so far that it
> gives you a choice between parties, but it >doesn't give parties/people
>on the left of the Democrats a chance.
A chance to what? Every person still has one vote. The only thing that a
two party system doesn't facilitate is having small groups of people very
intent on one issue ensuring that issue goes their way against the will of
the majority.
>*That* is what undemocratic about it.
But why is that undemocratic? Doesn't democracy go with majority rule? We
do have protections for minorities built into the US system, but they are,
by nature, non-democratic. The most important of these is the constitution.
The second most important, related to the constitution, is the division of
power.
BTW, even though they are non-democratic, they are not elitist. We seek
proctection from rash actions a temporary majority might wish to undertake,
even if that majority includes us.
>
>Then what is your definition of "tiny"? A constituency of one >million? Two
>million? Five million?
Compared to 200 million, yea. Why should 2 million impose their will on 200
million?
>
>In other words, a *single* party must win at least 45-50% of the >seats in
>Congress to be allowed in?
No. A single office holder must win either a plurality or a majority in an
election.
>What if two smaller parties (say Social-Democrats and Greens) would >both
>win 20%? Neither of them is exactly a majority, but if they >cooperate
>they will be well on their way to becoming one.
Well, then in the US system it would make sense for them to sponsor
candidates that they can both support, creating candidates for whom there is
40% support. At 40%, they should be able to elect a number of Senators and
Congresswomen. . At that point, they need to look at the undecideds to see
what it would take to persuade them to vote for their presidential
candidate.
The important feature of this is that the horse-trading takes place before
people vote, not after. This tends to build large coalitions, like the
labor/South/Catholic/poor coalitions of the Democratic Party for 50 years.
>Throw in a few votes from the leftist part of the Democrats, and you have a
>majority.
Well, those two parties would come from the leftist 10%, maybe 15% if you
push it of the nation, virtually all Democrats.
>
>Unfortunately, this will not happen because your system denies them >their
>place in Congress.
No, it doesn't happen because the Greens and the equivalent of the Social
democrats are a very small percentage of Americans. If they were about 40%,
then the would easily be able to control the winners of the Democratic
primaries and just need to moderate their stand a bit to get their
candidates elected in the general assembly.
What does happen with proportional representation is that small groups of
people have power to dictate their will to the rest of the people. An
example of this is the strict religious law in Israel. My Jewish friends
tell my Israelis are mostly atheistic. Indeed one of them talked about
being approached in the street to pray Koddish (sp) because there are so few
people in Israel who can.
Yet, the Shas party has been able to get very strict religious laws passed
as the price for joining one coalition or the other. About 5% of the
population, IIRC, is able to dictate to 95%. Is this democratic?
>
>Re: power: In European countries, power is very relative because a
>political party rarely (if ever) has an absolute majority. The only >way to
> get a majority is through forming coalitions with other >parties.
That's right, giving 5% of the people enormous leverage. It sounds good
when it�s the 5% you want. But, lets say the religious right wins 20% of
the vote and will join any coalition that will ensure that neo-evangelical
Christianity is taught in the public schools.
Dan'm Traeki Ring of Crystallized Knowledge.
Known for calculating, but not known for shutting up
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