John D. Giorgis wrote:
>At 12:13 PM 5/24/01 +1200 K.Feete wrote:
>>And you still sound like a B-grade movie. Let me give you a hint: they
>>tend to be characterized by an unbelievably clear line between good and
>>evil and a one-sided view of their subject matter....
>
>It is worth at least mentioning that you set up the debate in these terms.
Eh, what I said was:
> And we *are* pretty damn arrogant, when it comes right down to it, and we
>don't seem to have a lot of reason for it.
It was a throw-away comment at the end of some observations on what other
people think of us which was answered by an L3 rant on the glory and
greatness of America. At that point I pretty much assumed the debate had
*started*, and responded in kind. But if you really wanna play thesaurus
lawyer, go right ahead. <grin>
>You said that there was "not much reason" for Americans to be arrogant.
>You did not say that "despite America's many accomplishments, these people
>seem amazingly unaware of all the reasons for Americans to be humble."
I said "we".
>That's precisely what you argued, though, Kat - that there was "not much
>reason" to be arrogant. So, you admit that you were incorrect?
*Are* you in law training, John? You really ought to be. All right, the
statement as worded is incorrect- people can always find reason to be
arrogant. Let me correct my earlier casual wording and say that we don't
have much *justification* for our arrogance.
<Kat makes a bet with herself>
<John>
>>>It amazes me that you can be so completely ignorant about so many thing,
>>>and yet so confident about the peculiarities of your particular worldview.
>>
<me>
>>Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
>
>I, at least, claim to know what I am talking about. You, however,
>cheerfully admit to your ignorance while holding virulent opinions about
>the selfsame subjects.
I am ignorant. I will remain ignorant until the day I die, even if I live
a thousand years. I prefer freely admitting my ignorance in those areas
where it is especially blinding to claiming a realm of knowledge I don't
have.
Besides, what's the worst that happens? I say "Well, I don't know much
about this but I think..." and twenty people fall all over themselves
correcting my ignorance in twenty different ways and I come away knowing
all kinds of stuff I didn't know before. Oh, yeah, and I have to eat my
words, but what the hell, they don't feed me enough in college anyway.
And besides *that*, if I only formed opinions on things I knew a lot
about, it would severely curtail my opinion-making variety. And that
would be boring. <grin>
>At no point did I compare American sacrifices to British sacrifices. At
>no point did I say that we should be "more proud" than they. At no point
>did I say that this should be claimed as an American victory.
Yes, but that's the problem with arrogance. It *assumes* that we're
better than they are, and you can read it between every single line.
>Let me put this in perspective for you. If you go to the Korean War
>Memorial in Washington, D.C. - you will see a poignant tribute to all those
>who gave their lives for "A Land They Never Knew, and a People They Never
>Met."
They have many war memorials all over New Zealand. I don't remember
hearing anything about New Zealand in any of my history books. That's
arrogance.
I went to the Vietnam memorial when I was in DC. Now *that* is
perspective.
>You have *no* evidence for that. You really think that the Bosniacs
>resent us?
Yes. And I'm damned sure the Serbs did.
> I'm not going to debate the ethics of depleted uranium, but
>suffice to say, the Bosniacs also recognize that they were being
>systematically exterminated by the Serbs, and we were the ones who saved
>them.
Funny, I didn't see too many pictures of crowds cheering the NATO
peacekeepers as they marched... though I saw several of impromptu
brick-lobbings.
>Personally, I will take all of the Europeans who are indebted to us for
>their freedom. I will take the Kuwaitis, and Koreans, and Philippinos,
>and Pacific Islanders whose countries we liberated. I will take the
>Israelis and Turks and Saudis who consider us vital allies for the security
>of their country. And I will take the millions of Chinese, and Iranians,
>and Burmese, and other freedom-loving dissidents everywhere who see us as a
>symbol of liberty.
I'm sure they're so flattered by your magnamity.
> I will take all those and stack them up against the
>unfortunate victims in Iraq, Vietnam, and Japan and elsewhere of our
>mistakes. And after considering the two, I will proudly proclaim that
>they are *not* equal - that America has been a positive force of net GOOD
>in the world. And that it is precisely this goodness that lets us admit
>our mistakes and continually strive to improve them.
Okay, I can agree with that. I think we've been pretty good to, frankly,
and I will freely admit it. But not as good as we think we have been. And
not good enough. And not the best.
>Finally..... let me return to a previous quote:
>
>>Now *this* I *resent.* For God's sake, John, how many times have I yelled
>>about injustice and human suffering on this list?! Have you *ever* heard
>>me say a good word about a dictator? Don't you ever, *ever*, EVER tell me
>>again that I have no concept of suffering.
>
>Oooh, Kat, you sound *so* indignant!
Well, it's nice to hear that you actually *don't* misread *everything* I
say.
> It would be nice, however, if you
>could connect the disparate pieces of your fractured logic.
>
>Allow me to refresh your memory:
>>>Dear sweet God. "The evil, genocidal, empires of the Axis"? "The entire
>>>World threatened?" "dark shadows of communism?" You sound like you're
>>>selling me a computer game. And not a particularly good one.
>
>Help me out here Kat - but aren't you mocking me calling the Axis "evil,
>genocidal." And aren't you mocking me saying that the entire world was
>threatened by "communism."
Gee, two in a row! You actually caught the mockery! But, John, the Axis
*wasn't* evil and genocidal. Hitler was evil and genocidal. If we stretch
a bit we can probably claim all of Germany, and I suppose Mussolini as
well, although as far as I can remember he was mostly a vain little
bastard. Japan wasn't. I'm sure, though people will have to refesh my
memory on this one, that some of the other Axis powers weren't either.
And I'm damn sure the Germans fighting under Hitler weren't evil and
genocidal, and that the civilians at Hiroshoma weren't either. But
they're still the ones we killed.
The entire world threatened by communism? Er, that is really a bit much.
Communism turned out to be the biggest threat to itself. The Soviet Union
injured its own poor, bloody, battered people far more than it ever hurt
us Americans, although it did incite us into turning a bit the monster
ourselves- just as Hitler did. I alway pictured the Soviet Secret Police
cackling and rubbing their hands together over McCarthy: "Is he one of
ours?" "No, that's the best part, he's one of theirs!"
Put away the black paint, John. You're old enough now to be using the
colors.
>>>We can kill people really well. Woo Hoo.
>
>Personally, I take this as a direct insult to the millions of Americans who
>gave their lives in the defense of freedom, justice, and human rights.
Freedom, justice, human rights, and the pursuit of cheap oil. I grew up
around white trash, John- you know, the ones who get drafted first, both
here and away? Far be it from me to insult these people; they went
through a lot of pain and bitterness for America. Besides, they cuss the
government with so much more creativity and justification than I can.
But I hardly consider fighting a war- any war- to be something a country
should be *proud* of. The fact that you've had to fight it means you
really screwed up somewhere back there; you're past the point of fixing
your mistakes and into the realm of damage control.
>Were you insulted by what I said about you above my reposting of your
>quotes?
>
>Good.
>
>Because at least here, I know you'll read the stuff that I write, and then
>you'll have the chance to fire back with some appropriately snippy remark
>of your own.
Damn straight. This is the most fun I've had in months. And I do read the
stuff you write, John, with great and eager attention, so that I can
shove it all back down your throat. And I rest assured you read mine with
the same, ahem, vigorous attentiveness.
<grin>
Kat "The Adversary" Feete
--------------
When I hear a man preach, I like to see him act as if he were
fighting bees.
- Abraham Lincoln
