John D. Giorgis wrote:
>At 11:49 PM 5/24/01 +1200 K.Feete wrote:
>>>That's precisely what you argued, though, Kat - that there was "not much
>>>reason" to be arrogant. So, you admit that you were incorrect?
>>
>>*Are* you in law training, John? You really ought to be.
>
>No - but I had eight years of competitive debate in school. Otherwise, I
>am your average Economist with Geology training.
In other words, only a bit more qualified to comment on politics than I
am <grin>.
>
>>Besides, what's the worst that happens? I say "Well, I don't know much
>>about this but I think..." and twenty people fall all over themselves
>>correcting my ignorance in twenty different ways and I come away knowing
>>all kinds of stuff I didn't know before. Oh, yeah, and I have to eat my
>>words, but what the hell, they don't feed me enough in college anyway.
>
>The problem is you all too rarely eat your words. You admit to being
>wrong on individual details, but never the preponderance of your point.
I usually use these debates to sort of hone and shape my opinions,
actually; they may not change completely, but they do undergo some major
revision. And I'd also like to ask exactly when in the last, oh, three
years, that you have rectracted a point that you've made and not simply
admitted to being wrong on details?
People in glass houses, JDG.
>>Gee, two in a row! You actually caught the mockery! But, John, the Axis
>>*wasn't* evil and genocidal. Hitler was evil and genocidal. If we stretch
>>a bit we can probably claim all of Germany, and I suppose Mussolini as
>>well, although as far as I can remember he was mostly a vain little
>>bastard. Japan wasn't.
>
>Well, the original Axis referred to "Berlin-Rome" (hence the name.) Yes,
>the Japanese weren't so much genocidal, as just brutal war criminals.
Like us. I consider dropping the bomb to be a war crime, frankly, whether
we admit it or not.
>>And I'm damn sure the Germans fighting under Hitler weren't evil and
>>genocidal,
>
>A great many of them were. Hitler didn't run Auschwitz by himself, or
>Treblinka, or.......
*Some* were, JDG, some were. Some were "just following orders", an evil
but a less nasty one, and some had only the vaguest idea of what happened
in containment camps and were guilty only of swallowing the propaganda of
an evil and charismatic man. I would put the beardless boys on the front
lines- the ones that we were, for the most part, killing- by and large,
in that last category. And I would say they were in the majority.
>>Put away the black paint, John. You're old enough now to be using the
>>colors.
>
>What's most amazing about you Kat, is your indignant resentment about
>recognizing massive human rights abuses - and your continued inability to
>call the perpetrators of those abuses *evil* and those who put a stop to
>those abuses *good*.
Human rights abuses are evil. Stopping them is good. The people and/or
countries that commit human rights abuses are almost certainly not wholly
evil, however, and the people and/or countries that stop them are
certainly not wholly good. Claiming the US is entirely good because it
helped stop the Nazis is just as (but no more) ridiculous than claiming
the Soviet Union is entirely good because it helped stop the Nazis.
>>But I hardly consider fighting a war- any war- to be something a country
>>should be *proud* of. The fact that you've had to fight it means you
>>really screwed up somewhere back there; you're past the point of fixing
>>your mistakes and into the realm of damage control.
>
>Care to tell me exactly where the South Koreans screwed up, such that they
>were invaded by the North? Or where the Americans screwed up, such that
>we had to fight Britain in 1776?
The answer is that the South Koreans weren't invaded by the North.
America was invaded by the North. There was no Korean government at the
time; in fact, the US, when they occupied Korea in 1945, were under
orders not to recognize *anything* that claimed to be a Korean government
and instead to establish a United States Military Government in Korea.
The fledgeling and moderately left-leaning Korean People's Republic was
dismissed as a "Soviet stooge" and it, along with the "people's
committees" that formed it, was outlawed and eradicated; any political
demonstrations or labor strikes were assumed to be inspired by the
Soviets and put down out of hand.
I actually did some research on this one (which consisted of running a
search and clicking on the first applicable link that came up- I love the
Net). If you want my source, go to:
http://violet.berkeley.edu/~korea/
As for the American Revolution, the Brits made the mistake there, not us-
they weren't willing to let us go. Remember that my views on colonialism
aren't particularly positive, and getting rid of colonialist oppressors
is the closest I'll come to admitting that a war is "justified."
Kat Feete
--------------------
I don't make jokes- I just watch the government and
report the facts.
-Will Rogers
