On 8 Sep 2001, at 12:29, Nick Arnett wrote:
> > Aha. We've hit something I'm intensely interested in here.
> >
> > Animals behave selfishly, in terms of their genes. That doesn't mean
> > that they won't help blood relatives or mates, mind you, because
> > they have a selfish interest in them as well.
>
> selfish for species X. And if frog species X and fish species Y do
> something that makes them, together, more competitive -- let's call it
> "bar" -- then bar is altruistic within the combined community of frog
> species X and fish species Y, but competitive in the larger context.
Wait, how is it altruistic? It's selfish on the part of X and Y both,
since it allows them to compete better. I would argue that ALL
genetically-devived behavoir is selfish.
> I think this contextualization exists throughout the biosphere (and
> the universe, if we want to go there in this discussion).
Out of interest, how much Dawkins have you read? _The Selfish
Gene_ ? _The Extended Phenotype_
> > Humans...well, genetics would indicate we, too, are selfish.
>
> Your association of genetics with selfishness bothers me. It seems to
> me that if there is a reality to collaboration as something that is
> "known" like competitiveness, it is in genetics as well.
>
> > But we are not ruled by genes. We have memes as well. Memes -
> > a meme is an idea or concept. It is a concept of information, and it
> > can spread, change and adapt much like a gene can. However, it is a
> > social concept rather than a physical one, and memes can be either
> > selfish, or altruistic.
> >
> > What we call "Society" is a collection of altruistic memes.
>
> I would certainly agree. But are memes, or more generally, the notion
> of shared ideas, an exclusively human trait? Have not the very cells
> in our bodies "agreed" upon how to communicate? Is the emergence of
> such communications, through biology, any different from the emergence
> of memes in human communications? Or is that something that
> differentiates us from the rest of the universe? I'd answer that last
> question, "No."
Exclusively Human? no, Dolphins have shown some signs of
having them as well. Spoken *Language* is the key to the
evoloution of memes, complex languages allow ideas to be
discussed, and only through complex languages can memes arrive.
IMHO, of course.
This debate still goes on in scientific circles, but I remind you that
Darwin himself looked on genes (although not in those terms) as
being selfish.
Andy
Dawn Falcon
