In a message dated Fri, 28 Dec 2001 1:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jeffrey Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Gautam wrote:
> >
> > <<Jeroen:
> > What I said was that we should not send our soldiers to Afghanistan to fight your
>war. I have no problem with our Intelligence Agencies working together to find the
>terrorists and bring them to justice.
> >
> > Jeroen
> >
> > Me:
> > So, what happened in Afghanistan was just our war? The invocation of Article V,
>that doesn't mean anything to you? You have, on many occasions, criticized the US
>for not moving faster in Bosnia. That was clearly not
> > our war. Why then do you blame us for failing to send soldiers fast enough to
>fight in what was very clearly someone else's war?
> >
> > Gautam>>
> >
> > Jeroen,
> >
> > I would like to point out that according to what you have now said you believe
>that The Netherlands should not fulfill their NATO treaty obligations.
> >
> > By your own admission: ("What I said was that we should not send our soldiers to
>Afghanistan to fight your war.") you feel that your country should not fulfill its
>obligations under the treaty.
> >
Jeffrey wrote:
> A few points, as I understand them (please correct me if I'm wrong
> here..)
>
> - Article V is in regards to attacks by foreign powers
>
That is correct. I have posted Article 5 and 6 as well as Article 51 from the UN
Charter at the end of my post for clarification and easy reference.
State-sponsored terrorism is war. If memory serves, this has been the policy of most
major democracies on the planet for at least the last 20 years.
> - Afghanistan did not attack us, /merely/ harboring AQ
>
See above. State Sponsored terrorism is war, therefore they have committed acts of
war as recognized by this country. They refused to turn over a man who planned the
murders of 3000 of our citizens. Therefore, they have committed an act of war.
> - We're (US're) constantly claiming that the rules are different since
> we weren't attacked by a foreign country
>
> ...so where's the NATO Article V responsibility?
>
> Oh wait, I forgot - you're with us or with the terrorists.. right,
> sorry.
>
We are not claiming that the rules are different because we weren't attacked by a
foreign country. I haven't seen that in the media at all, and I may be wrong... but
I'd like to see you back that claim up with a link to a news article (and not an
editorial.)
We have repeatedly said that because Afghanistan harbored terrorists that murdered
3000 of our innocent citizens in an unprovoked attack, they have committed an act of
war. Nothing that you've said denies this, or argues that this is wrong.
> > The treaty does not say "well, we'll do what we like when we feel like it." The
>treaty states that an attack on one country that is a member of NATO is an attack on
>all members.
> >
>
> ..then the Dutch should help us fight AQ/Bin Laden/etc, NOT foreign
> countries we deem to be worthy of the ole one-two punch of cruise
> missles and smart bombs.
>
I don't really understand what you have said here. The Dutch signed a treaty which
explicitly says they should help us in our fight against Afghanistan. Could you
clarify your statement after the word "NOT"? Right now, I really think it's a
non-sequitor.
> > By treaty terms, the Netherlands must do as much as any other member. Sending
>spies instead of soldiers due to political convenience is NOT acceptable according to
>the treaty.
> >
>
> Why not? Its good enough for Germany and Japan... they usually just
> send cash, but this time they actually sent people.
And I didn't say that Germany and Japan are correct in doing so. I am criticizing
something very specific that Jeroen said onlist: Jeroen said that he does not want his
country to abide by the terms of NATO.
Please read the Article again, including the following: "...such action as it deems
necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of
the North Atlantic area."
Sounds like they're expected to assist militarily to me.
Jon
Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North
America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree
that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of
individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the
United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith,
individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary,
including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North
Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be
reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security
Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace
and security .
Article 6 (1)
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed
to include an armed attack:
* on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian
Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the
jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of
Cancer;
* on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these
territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the
Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the
Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or
collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United
Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain inter-
national peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right
of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in
any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the
present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to
maintain or restore international peace and security.
