> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Dan Minette
[snip]
> List owners can do more. They get to decide who is on the list and who is
> off the list. A few keystrokes and a listowner can boot anyone they want
> to. That is a measure of power on the list.
Do you think anyone here would put up with any list "owners" who did so
without an excellent reason and the consensus of the community? Imagine
what would happen if they really did that, for something other than issues
such as spamming. Sure, Jeroen *can* kick someone off the list, but I don't
think that matters any more than the fact that any of us *can* grab a gun
and shoot somebody. I can tip-toe through the world feeling like others
have great power over me because they can whip out a handgun and shoot me,
or hijack an airplane into a building. Or I can believe in the power of
community to stop people from doing that sort of thing.
Somebody has to administer the list for it to exist, so we're stuck with
having administrators. But we're not here at the mercy of any list owners,
because "here" is not some software running on a server at Cornell. "Here"
is this group of people talking about this stuff. It does not depend on any
particular computer or administrator for its existence.
Now, having said all that, I'll add that on the lists I manage, I try very
hard not to behave in a way that would even create the appearance of bias,
since people do, in fact, look at list administrators as owners. I also
make pains to ensure that I always identify myself as a manager, not an
owner.
This attitude stems in part from dealing with an idiot list "owner" who
really acted like the list, which he merely volunteered to manage, truly
belonged to himself, like a possession. I suppose we've all seen them. He
no longer manages that list, having been forced to create a competing one.
That's how this medium should work.
> Its the technical term that is used by most mailing lists. List
> owners are
> like superusers on computer systems, they have privledges that
> others don't.
Of course, I know that. And it's what I'm fighting against. An on-line
community cannot be owned -- that principle needs to become engrained in
Internet culture, IMO.
> >If he wants to play Nixon and create an enemies list, that shouldn't
> threaten the list any more than if >anyone else did so.
>
> Why not? Only two other people have the power to kick people off
> the list.
Because it's not kicking people off the list. It wasn't wrong of Nixon to
create his list, either. It was weird and scary, but not wrong. When he
took actions based on the list, that was often wrong. So if people want to
tell Jeroen that it is disturbing that he would compose such a list, fine.
On the other hand, it's not as if he can secretly kick people off the list.
Again, imagine what the reaction would be if he did.
Not to mention the fact that he has repeatedly assured us that he won't
abuse his power as a list administrator. He's just criticizing people and
arguing. Others decided that because he also volunteers to do
administrative stuff, he shouldn't. Phooey, I say. Find a better argument
against his behavior if you don't like it.
> > I could have "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" up and running in minutes.
> Any of you
> > could do the same via a number of free hosting services.
>
> That's true. We could get a list full of ads in each message.
Hey, I run a clean shop here. No ads!
> Any one of
> us could do that. However, lets consider the case in which person A and B
> are in a flame war. B cannot stop A from posting whatever A
> pleases, but A
> can boot B off the list at any time. Its true that B can then start a new
> list, but it would take a lot of motivation for the rest of the people on
> the list to move en mass. Unlike the Reformation, people cannot be
> converted at gunpoint. :-)
A list manager who kicks off those who disagree would be *plenty* of motivat
ion for me and others, I'm quite sure. If Jeroen or anybody else starting
pulling that kind of stunt, this community would die in a hurry (although
burial might be delayed for a long time). I've seen it happen many times
over the last 15 years or so. And Jeroen knows it, I'm sure. I can't
imagine his fellow list managers would tolerate it, must less the rest of
us.
Nick
