> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of John D. Giorgis > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 12:04 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: RE: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists > > At 09:49 AM 6/21/2003 -0400 Jon Gabriel wrote: > >> 1) How many times is Mary mentioned in the normal Catholic Mass (which > >> Catholics are obligated to attend weekly)? > > > >Interesting. I have no idea, but I'd like to know the answer and would > >appreciate your posting it. While we're at it, what about the number of > >mentions/prayers devoted to Mary during Penance, Baptism, Confirmation, > >First Communion and the Sacrament of Matrimony? > > Since almost all of these are merely Sacraments administered during a > Mass, > off the top of my head I believe that there is no difference (without > digging up the text of each), with the exception of Matrimony, where Mary > figures a bit more prominently, simply because of the obvious parallels > to > marriage from her life.
Okay. That makes sense. > > >What about > >Assumption/Crowning during the 'Glorious Mysteries' portion of the > >Rosary decade? > > The rosary is not said during Mass. Catholics do, however, believe that > Mary has been crowned "Queen of Heaven". (See Robert's discussion of > "royal court theology.) I guess I shouldn't have assumed this, but I do believe the rosary is one of the most important parts of Catholic ritual, and that's why I mentioned it. I posted my questions to Rob about Mary... I won't repost them, but if you could throw your 2 cents in I'd appreciate it. :) > > Anyhow, in answer to your question, the answer is once, maybe twice. > > The first instance is during the Creed, where Catholics say "We > believe.... > that he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man." > > The second is during he Penitential Rate, one form of which is "I confess, > to almighty God, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts > and in my word, in what I have done, and what I have failed to do. And I > ask blessed Mary ever-virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my > brothers and sisters, to pray for me, to the LORD, our God." > > I don't think that either of these could rightly be termed "worship." > Interesting. I was always under the impression that she had a much more prominent role in the mass service. Of course, it's not like I was counting or anything when I attended mass. :) > >> 2) How many instances of worship of Mary are included in a typical > >decade > >> of the rosary (the most common Catholic Marian devotion)? > > > >Anywhere from 3 to 10 repetitions of Hail Mary and, I believe, 1 Hail > >Holy Queen. As I mentioned above, there are also several sections of > >the decade devoted to Mary. > > > >The text of Hail Holy Queen: > >Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our > >hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we > >send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn > >then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after > >this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O > >merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen. > > > >(Taken from http://www.webdesk.com/catholic/prayers/hailholyqueen.html) > > Nitpick: "Hail Holy Queen" isn't part of a "decade" of the rosary - which > is usually 10 Hail Mary's, an Our Father, and a "Glory Be." > IIRC, at least two ex-girlfriends also recited the 'Hail Holy Queen'. I remember thinking it was a nice prayer and asked one of them to teach it to me. So is adding it in an accepted variation of the standard Rosary or were they just doing it wrong? :) (Hrm... it's not a version specifically for women, right?) More interesting to me at the moment is the phrase: 'most gracious Advocate', which agrees with Rob's description of Mary's status (as far as I understand you both). > >Are you saying that Mary is not also worshipped or prayed to? > >Considering all of the prayers and mentions we're discussing, I'd > >definitely disagree with that. > > There is a huge difference between worship and prayer. Prayer is simply > a > method of communication. Worship is a type of communication. > > For example, Catholics believe in life-everlasting after death in heaven. > Given that most Christians don't have a problem with asking for others to > pray for yourself, or someone else, etc., it follows that Catholics are > always somewhat mystified why Christians have such difficulty asking > someone in heaven to pray for yourself, or someone else, etc. Okay, this is a lot clearer. Thank you. > Anyhow, you will see that there is nothing in the Haily Holy Queen or Hail > Mary that constitutes "worship." Rather, both of them simply ask Mary to > remember us in her prayers. Interesting. This makes sense. > > >> >They profess to adhere to > >> >the bible > >> > >> I have never heard a Catholic profess this, and neither the word nor > >the > >> conept of the "Bible" never appears in the Catholic Profession of > >Faith, > >> nor in the Catholic baptismal promises. > >> > > > >Really? So why do you read it and say prayers from it? What purpose > >does the Catholic Bible serve and what is its value? > > Ignoring the Old Testament for a moment, the New Testament is a recording > of how individuals in the time immediately following Jesus's Asencion > recorded their experience of Faith. As such, it is, I would hope for > obvious reasons, extremely valuable to Christians. > > Given, however, that the Catholic Church predates the Bible by several > hundred years, it is not a necessary condition of our religion. Rather, > it was the Catholic Church that codified the Bible to be a supplemental > resource of vast importance to our faith. Many of my current crop of close friends are Protestants. They tend to be very literal in their interpretation of the Bible. It's kind of colored my views on the subject. The 'Bible is The Word' meme. But this also makes a lot of sense. Thanks. > > >A side question. Why is it that Mary is always seen in a glass window or > >something? Why not Jesus? > > When Jesus comes back, the world as we know it comes to an end - and we > wouldn't want that, now would we? ;-) Ha! Okay. That makes sense. It also makes sense, as I consider this, that Mary, as an 'advocate' would be considered more.... accessible? That's probably not the right word. Jon _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
