> When I think of "Christian values," I think of such things as > honesty, > charity, love for your fellow humans, not stealing, not > murdering, not > committing adultery (which by definition involves someone who > is married to > another and therefore damages that family, which may include innocent > children), honoring your parents, etc., most of which I would > also classify > as "civilized values" (as in "IAAMOAC"), so when you say that you > "personally do not agree with most Christian values," I'm > curious which > particular values you don't agree with . . .
The 10 Commandments have some good values, that fit within the boundaries you speak of (Civilized Values) but the commandments were not created by Jesus, but by Abraham (alright - he didn't, but he did bring them down from the mountain).
Many Christian denominations identify "Jesus" = "God" or "Jesus" = "Jehovah" = the "God" of the OT, so they would say that Jesus is indeed the author of the Ten Commandments.
Christians definitely do not hold the monopoly on these values you speak of. I can't think of a religion that does not hold those same values as their own.
I didn't mean that the values I listed were either (1) unique to Christianity or (2) constituted a complete list of "Christian values." Most Christians in general consider the values I listed and similar ones important indicators of whether a person is indeed a follower of Christ: most of them would say that a person who steals, commits adultery, is dishonest, etc., is not following Christ, regardless of whether their names are on the roll of a Christian denomination, they attend church on Sunday, or even holding a leadership position in their church. As someone has said, "Going to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian any more than sleeping overnight in a garage makes you a Chevrolet."
I will remind you of the 10 commandments before I give you the list of Christian values I don't like.
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' SIX: 'You shall not murder.' SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.' NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.' TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
While the 10 commandments were not a Christian construct, attempts were made to "change" the commandments to reflect the new Christian values.
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40)."
As you can see, Christian values place God above all, then fellow man.
Response #1: The first four commandments listed above are about honoring God, the last six are about one's relationship with other humans.
Response #2:
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." (1 John 4:20-21)
where AFAIK all Christians understand "brother" here to mean the same thing as "neighbor" in the story of the Good Samaritan: your fellow man.
The individual, family, or Mankind is not mentioned. Neighbor implies local, vs. global. I am sure there are other places where Jesus refers to "love your fellow man" in the global context, which only illustrates the many convoluted interpretations of what it mean to be a Christian. With enough contradictions, logic suggests that being a good Christian near impossible.
Only if you are asking the question in the form "What is the minimum I have to do to be a 'good' Christian?" and hoping that the answer will put a limit on who you should love. As I said above, AFAIK all Christians understand "brother" or "neighbor" in these contexts to mean "any human being."
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?" (Matthew 5:43-47)
"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." (Luke 6:27-36)
Reggie's post arrived while I was still working on my response, so rather than repeating a lot of what he said, I will just go ahead and add my comments to his.
At 04:50 PM 6/24/03 -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote:
Chad wrote:Here is the list of values I do not agree with:
First let me say that many of the values you list as Christian are not universally held Christian values. You'll find that some Christians might have these values, and some might not.
This is the same thing I said above about the list I gave in my last message.
I'll give more details as I address each of the values you mention.
Opposition to Abortion rights
This one is pretty mainstream within the Christian community, and is the position of the Catholic church as well as Fundamentalist churches. But I personally as a Christian do not oppose abortion rights, and I know many within both the Catholic church and even within a couple of Baptist churches where I have some friends who also don't oppose abortion rights. I'm definitely not going to defend this one, as I also disagree with opposition to abortion rights (or said another way, I support abortion rights). But as I've stated before, I believe that reducing the number of abortions is a good idea, and I think you accomplish that by working to reduce poverty and increase education.
Also, this is not a position exclusive to Christians. From <<http://www.beliefnet.com/features/0628_achart.html>>:
<quote>
HINDUISM
Vasu Murti and Mary Krane Derr write in the Fall 1998 issue of the Journal of Feminism and Non-Violence Studies that "Hinduism teaches that abortion, like any other act of violence, thwarts a soul in its progress toward God. Hindu scriptures and tradition have from the earliest of times condemned the practice of abortion, except when the life of the mother is in danger. Hinduism teaches that the fetus is a living, conscious person needing and deserving protection. Hindu scriptures refer to abortion as garha-batta (womb killing) and bhroona hathya (killing the undeveloped soul)."
ISLAM
Islam prohibits abortion except when the mother's life is in danger. Muslims consider a fertilized ovum that is attached to the womb a living being that has the potential of reaching its full formation. A developed fetus is considered a human life and is subject to the laws of inheritance to the extent that if the mother is sentenced to capital punishment, her life should be preserved because she is carrying another human life.
BUDDHISM
Under the first of the five Buddhist precepts--to refrain from taking life, from insects on up the evolutionary ladder--abortion is proscribed. Life is deemed to begin as soon as consciousness arises, and fetuses are seen as having consciousness. The Buddha's rules for his community of monks also forbade anyone from recommending abortion. Some practitioners of Japanese Zen who have had a miscarriage or abortion honor or make an offering to the deity Jizo, the god of lost travelers and children. It is believed that Jizo will steward the child until it is reborn in another incarnation.
BAHA'I
According to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is, "Baha'is believe the soul becomes associated with the body at conception, and the deliberate taking of human life is generally not permitted. Baha'i writings clearly state that abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is forbidden. Baha'i institutions do not legislate on the issue of abortion, and it is left to the individuals concerned to decide the best course of action."
JUDAISM
According to Rabbi Raymond A. Zwerin and Rabbi Richard J. Shapiro, writing for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, traditional Jewish law teaches that "the fetus is not considered a full human being, and has no individual rights, but rather, according to many sources, is a part of a woman's body. And just as any person may not voluntarily do harm to his or her body, a woman may not voluntarily abort a fetus. However, just as a portion of the body may be sacrificed to save a person's life, an abortion may be performed for the woman's overall well-being, and an existing life takes precedence over a potential life, if there must be a choice between them."
UNITARIAN- UNIVERSALIST
According to the Unitarian-Universalist Association's official position paper, the church "believes in the right of every woman to safe and affordable abortion services, including federally funded abortion counseling and abortion provision, and has called for governmental protection for abortion providers and women who receive abortions."
CHRISTIANITY
American Baptist
According to a position paper of the American Baptist Churches USA, the denomination "opposes abortion as a means of birth control or a means of eliminating unwanted pregnancies, but differs on when life begins and whether the church should advocate for governmental restrictions on abortion."
Catholic
The Catholic Church teaches that every human being has a right to life from the moment of conception. The church holds that every abortion--the willful killing of a human embryo or fetus--is a grave moral evil. The penalty for procuring an abortion is automatic excommunication. Formally cooperating in an abortion is a grave offense. More-->
Eastern Orthodoxy
The Orthodox Church teaches that abortion is the killing of a child. Grave questions like these are settled by the Holy Spirit's guidance, which is found pre-eminently in Scripture, and other writings and community decisions must be consistent with Scripture. From the earliest years, Christian writings have instructed "Do not murder a child by abortion or kill one who has been born" (The Didache, c. 70-80 C.E.).
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
According to the ELCA's official position paper, the church "believes abortion ought to be an option only of last resort. The church, in most circumstances, encourages women with unintended pregnancies to continue the pregnancy. The church, however, recognizes that there can be sound reasons for ending a pregnancy through induced abortion."
Latter-Day Saints
According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints considers elective abortion sinful, though not necessarily murder. A Latter-day Saint cannot have or perform an abortion except in the cases of rape, incest, the life of the mother being endangered, or a severely defective fetus that cannot survive birth.
The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
According to the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod's official position paper, the denomination "believes abortion is contrary to God's Word and is not a moral option except in the tragic situation when it is necessary to save the life of the mother."
Presbyterian Church (USA)
The Presbyterian Church (USA) says in official teaching that it "acknowledges legitimate diversity of opinion. Abortion can be acceptable under circumstances of rape or incest, physical or mental deformity of the fetus, or threats to the physical or mental well-being of the mother. Oppose its use as a method of birth control. Acknowledge that the state has at least a limited interest in regulating abortion, but believe in safe and affordable access to abortions for those deemed acceptable."
Southern Baptist Convention
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's official statement, "At the moment of conception, a new being enters the universe, a human being, a being created in God's image. This human being deserves our protection, whatever the circumstances of conception."
United Methodist Church
The United Methodist Church writes in its official statement that the denomination "believes in the sanctity of unborn human life and are reluctant to approve abortion. But they are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy."
</quote>
Supremacy of Church over Family or the individual
I don't believe in the absolute supremacy of any organized religion over the family or the individual. But this issue is much more complicated than that, and I don't think it's within the scope of this email to attack that.
I may get to it later in a separate post, especially if you put some more specifics on that.
Intolerance to vastly different religions
Like some of the others on your list, this is not a general Christian value. It is much more prevalent among Fundamentalists than among others. I personally have friends who are various varieties of "neo-pagans" and "neo-druids," as well as a Buddhist friend and a couple of Native American friends who follow their traditional spiritual beliefs. Most of the times we have talked about religion (or more specifically, about spirituality), we have focused on the things our beliefs have in common. Many Christians are quite tolerant of "vastly different religions."
On the other hand... I have a tee shirt that has a picture of Stonehenge and says, "Orthodox Druid" on it. I like the shirt because it's a joke -- there is no such thing as orthodoxy among druids. Orthodox druid is as much an oxymoron as military intelligence or Microsoft Works. While wearing this shirt, I've been approached by Fundamentalists who want to talk to me about their religious beliefs. None of them want to believe me when I tell them it's a joke, and they try to tell me that even joking about this can make me go to hell.
Perhaps you need a new T-shirt: <<http://www.goohf.com/>>.
I find this kind of ironic, because a neo-druid friend tells me that his belief tells him to never mock anyone else's god or gods, because all gods are one, and they just show different faces to different people depending on what those people need. As a Christian I can see a certain wisdom in this.
Belief that one's God should protect one in war, over one's enemy
I don't think this is a codified, specific belief of any Christian church.
*Individual* Christians of course will pray that they will be safe in war, just as athiests will *hope* that they will be safe in war. I have no problem with either. But I don't see this as a specifically Christian value. If you are talking about Christians praying that the enemy will be slaughtered, then I also have a problem with that, and that problem starts with the biblical injuction to "love you enemies"...
I certainly prayed for those on both sides of the recent Iraq conflict.
Belief in the Original Sin
From the Catholic Encyclopedia at <<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm>>:
"Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam."
So perhaps I should ask which definition you are using, and any more specifics about how you are using it. As a brief comment on the subject: some non-Catholic Christians believe that the Atonement did away with any taint from Adam's sin, so a baby is born innocent and is responsible only for the sins s/he commits in life. Some indeed believe that young children are innocent until they reach the age where they can tell right from wrong, so an infant who dies automatically goes to heaven, regardless of whether or not s/he has been baptized, since baptism represents a symbolic washing away of sins, and an infant who is not old enough to know right from wrong cannot sin.
Belief in Creationism Opposition of teaching evolution
There may indeed be some Christian denominations whose official position is that the Earth and everything else was created out of nothing 6,000 years ago and that evolution is a false teaching inspired by the devil. Some apparently are willing to believe that the world is much older and evolution describes the way that other forms of life came to be, but that Man was specially created by God. Some denominations have no official position on these issues but allow each individual member to draw his or her own conclusions.
Supremacy of KJV bible over other canon
By this, do you mean belief (1) that the King James version is superior to all other versions of the Bible, or (2) that the 66 books in the Protestant version of the Bible constitute the entire canon of scripture, and everything else is false?
I've been quoting from the KJV primarily for the same reason that Julia mentioned: because it's the one that's easiest for me to copy and paste from, and because it is the version that most people are most familiar with. Between dead-tree copies, CD-ROMs, and web sites I have bookmarked, I probably have at least two or three dozen different versions of the Bible I can refer to, though. I know that some denominations use one version in preference to the others, and/or publish their own particular versions as "authorized." Others don't seem to care.
There are clearly materials missing from the 66-book canon which were apparently considered genuine and authoritative in Biblical times. Some of those have been lost, others are available in the Apocrypha or other sources. Again, I have some of them available here and know where I could find others, and I have read and studied some of them, though admittedly not as extensively as those scriptures considered canonical.
Opposition to Homosexuality
There are plenty of Christian denominations who are not opposed to homosexuality, and some denominations even allow openly homosexual ministers, Evangelical Lutherans (ELCA) for example. But again, typically you would find opposition to homosexuality among Fundamentalists.
Islam and Orthodox Judaism also teach that homosexual behavior is a sin.
Altruism
You don't think altruism is a good thing?
My reaction, too.
Dictionary.com defines altruism as 1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
The NSOED defines it as "Regard for others as a principle of action; unselfishness", which is essentially the same thing.
2. _Zoology_ Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.
What do you think is wrong with altruism?
Penance
Do you mean the specific Catholic sacrament of penance, or the general idea of feeling sorry for things you did wrong and asking for forgiveness from those you have wronged?
Supremacy of Privacy between church leaders and liturgy (?).
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this one.
That makes two of us.
FWIW, Dictionary.com gives the following entries for "liturgy":
<quote>
3 entries found for liturgy.
lit�ur�gy
n. pl. lit�ur�gies
A prescribed form or set of forms for public religious worship.
often Liturgy Christianity. The sacrament of the Eucharist.
Source: The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright � 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
liturgy
\Lit"ur*gy\, n.; pl. Liturgies. [F. liturgie, LL. liturgia, Gr. ? a public service, the public service of God, public worship; (assumed) ?, ?, belonging to the people, public (fr. ?, ?, the people) + the root of ? work. See Lay, a., and Work.] An established formula for public worship, or the entire ritual for public worship in a church which uses prescribed forms; a formulary for public prayer or devotion. In the Roman Catholic Church it includes all forms and services in any language, in any part of the world, for the celebration of Mass.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, � 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
liturgy
n 1: a Christian sacrament commemorating the Last Supper by consecrating bread and wine [syn: Eucharist, sacrament of the Eucharist, Holy Sacrament, Liturgy, Eucharistic liturgy, Lord's Supper] 2: a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
Source: WordNet � 1.6, � 1997 Princeton University
</quote>
Could it be that you meant something else?
Belief that Christian values are the only good values or that if one does not believe in Christian values, that one has no values
See my comments above about intolerance.
The tying of being Moral or being Ethical as being Christian.
See my comments above about intolerance.
The belief that Christian values are exclusively "family" values
Any further discussion on this one would depend on which specific values you mean, and also on which specific Christians you mean.
Belief that those that choose to not believe in Abraham's god are doomed to Hell
See my comments above about intolerance.
Reliance upon faith as a basis for the formulation a set of ethics, morals, and values
Heinlein was ridiculed by some for his concept of a formalized math of ethics in _Starship Troopers_. I don't have the answer on this, other than to say Dan M. asks some awfully good questions about what the basis of ethics, morals, and values should be, if they aren't based on faith and/or religious beliefs. I certainly don't have any good answers on this one, only questions (questions for *both* sides of the arguement, by the way).
The only true justice is Christian justice (eye for an eye).
As I stated in a previous email, Christian justice is not an eye for an eye.
The right to pray in school (see how popular that idea is if schools started broadcasting Moslem Prayer calls over school intercoms...)
I believe strongly that as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school :-)
You beat me to it. ;-)
But I think it is wrong for a student to be required to participate in a prayer or be forced to sit and listen as others pray.
Individual private prayer is no problem as I see it, and groups getting together to pray during time that is otherwise free time (before school, after school, during lunch, etc) is ok by me too, so long as it isn't in a place that forces others to hear.
Many of the values you list as Christian values are better defined as Fundamentalist Christian values, and I think you will find many non-Fundamentalist Christians agreeing with you.
Jesus primarily preached Justice, Humility, and Love. I am for this (of course). I think most every non-Christian is as well. The differences come into play when we discuss what is meant by each of these values, Justice, Humility, and Love. ( I am generalizing, for sure, but bear with me.)
Justice Christian - Commutative Justice (Eye for an Eye) Buddhist - Belief in Karma, Justice too much like revenge. Islam - Justice is the basis of God's acts.
Again, Christian justice is not an eye for an eye. Christianity (non-Fundamentalist Christianity) is about forgiveness and love. (For the Fundies, it's more about fear and blind obedience, and you won't find me supporting that kind of "justice.")
Love Christian - Love God and Christ first, then your fellow man. Buddhist - Love oneself first, then others Islam - Love only one God, Allah, then all else, for the sake of God, and in the name of God.
Who you love first has always seemed like an irrelevant question to me.
And see my comments above.
When people ask that question, they are usually really asking "to whom are you most loyal." The real question is, "what is love?" I believe the answer goes something like, "Love is patient, love is kind..." For more details, see the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians, chapter 13.
Humility Christian - Strong requirement for worship and entry into Heaven Islam - Strong requirement for worship and entry into Heaven Buddhist - That which is most pursued.
You said above that you are for humility, but not necessarily as defined by Christianity. But here you don't really offer a Christian definition of humility, only a statement of its importance within the religion.
You may reply back that those beliefs are generalized, and outdated, that modern Christians are more liberal, or that I may just have it wrong. But before you do, I would kindly ask that you ask yourself whether or not you really align as closely as you think you do to Christian values.
There is *no such thing* as Christian values. There are many different sets of values which different Christians hold. To talk about Christian values as if they were a universal, monolithic entity is simply to deny reality.
There is no more one universal set of Christian values than there is one universal definition of what it means to be an American. To some, being American is all about baseball, hotdogs, and apple pie. To others being American is about being free. To others, being American is about being dominant, being the best country possible at all costs. To some Christians, Christianity is about fear of hell. To some, it's about forgiveness and love. To some, it's about obedience (these are probably some of the same people for whom being American is about being dominant).
You mention a list of Christian values, but you failed to mention God's importance in the priority or order of value.
And this is important because...? You seem very interested in issues of heirarchy, much more interested that many Christians. As I stated at the beginning of this email and many times throughout, the values you list as Christian are not univerally held values among Christians.
I didn't see that it was a point in question. Given that one is a Christian, one believes in God.
I'll ask the tough question now. If attaining Utopia required everyone on Earth to become a non-Christian, would you give up Christianity? I'm not saying this is true, but I am challenging your notion of love of civilization over love of Christ.
Would a Christian consider a Utopia to be a Utopia without God?
What is your definition of "Utopia"?
Alas, I have given more than enough today to insure I will get an online thrashing.
No thrashing intended, just callin' 'em as I see 'em.
I want you to see how _I_ see Christian values, in a more broad context. Is it less about the Values themselves, as much as it is the priority of those values (God over Man, Gospel over Man, Gospel over Family, Family over Individual).
To you, is the individual the all-important thing? Do you believe that individual sacrifice for community or country is a bad thing?
If that is the case, then we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think that community is very important. I also believe in things like personal responsibility, not letting the community dictate every single action I take, but I do place value in altruism and sacrifice, provided that sacrifice is not forced upon the individual but is taken by that individual by an act of free will?
Or do you not believe in free will?
Reggie Bautista
-- Ronn! :)
God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam� God bless America! My home, sweet home.
-- Irving Berlin (1888-1989)
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