From: Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: New Hate-Mongering Chick Tract is out Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 15:15:22 -0700
Travis Edmunds wrote:
... if they did not teach the actual teachings of Jesus, which is what the Catholic Church is very specifically based upon), and states that one must be repentant at heart.
Where does that idea, that "must," come from? What authority? Cite, please.
The authority my friend would be God Himself (which is all too proper to use in this particular context, agree?) coupled with the concept of free will, which is basically a choice that is left for Humans to make on their own - serve God or the Devil - which in and of itself is a very black & white standpoint that is a key part of Christian dogma. That being said, in order to gain entry to Heaven (either by going straight there or after the purification of Purgatory) one must make a choice (free will) of whom to serve. And whatever choice one makes is a choice that one *wants* to make. Not that God doesn't love them, he does. He just won't let them into his house until they have washed up. And it's entirely up to them to keep up their personal hygiene. Hence my saying that someone 'must' be repentant at heart. They have to decide whom they serve, and actually WANT to repent. Otherwise it's one big lie. And I'd like to add that this is even another topic of dicussion, which specifically deals with my belief that organized religion serves no useful purpose othen than as a moral institution.
I'm curious to hear if it's a church or the Bible, which sometimes have little to do with each other.
Here is where we agree, yet disagree. It is true that the Bible and religion (church) sometimes have little to do with each other. We agree on that. However, you draw distinctions between different facets of religion ("religion/church/faith"), whereas I say they are for all intents and purposes intertwined. And if they are indeed intertwined (believe you me sir they are) then for the Bible and the Church to sometimes have little to do with each other, is a perfect example of the contemptable hypocrisy that I say runs rampant through organized religion in general; and in this case catholicism.
The Roman Catholic Church is *not* specifically based on the teachings of Jesus
Are you trying to tell me that with a straight face?
-- it also is based on papal authority,
The Pope is supposedly infallible (according to Catholic dogma) because he is in direct communion with God (who I might add is PERFECT), therefore your 'papal authority' is nothing more than God himself getting done what he wants done. And need I add that what God wants done is what Jesus taught? Need I add the mystery of the Trinity? That Jesus IS God?
the saints, etc.
The saints?!?!? The Roman Catholic Church is based (partly) on the saints?!? No it isn't. Certain splinter groups (that are still under the Catholic Church) like the Franciscans, certainly follow their saints' teachings devoutly. But it all happens under the wing of the Catholic Church.
Sort of a Jesus-plus deal. I don't think there's any question about that.
I like the way you put that. Too bad I disagree with the context in which it was posted.
The good news is that we are acceptable to God exactly as we are. Jesus' harshest words were for the self-righteous, who rejected that idea.
Not exactly. You speak more from a modernization movement within religion, rather than from an actual dogmatic point of view.
There is nothing "modern" about it. It goes back at least a couple of thousand years. Plenty of people get it wrong and preach what they think it should be.
For the sake of time I shall pretend to agree with you, and put forward a question - will it ever change? (people getting it wrong and preaching what they think it should be)
I really should add something more though. You say that the Christianity (which, like it or not IS based upon the teachings of Jesus) sometimes get's the real message of the 'good news' wrong. And one of those messages is indeed that we are acceptable to God exactly as we are. I couldn't agree more on that score Nick. But if such is the case, then what is the point of reconciliation? And as Jon Bon Jovi once sang - "If there's nothing but survival, how can I believe in sin?"
It incenses me, the hypocrisy of it all, and the ultimate futility, as I'm sure you will come to see when you answer my above question on whether or not individual interpretation of 'God's Word' will ever change.
-Travis "being hypocritical on the outside to make a point" Edmunds
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