Cleaning up messages that I had not responded to: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: Justice, was Re: KEP part 4 L3
> >If it is the former, I will guarantee that innocent people will be locked > >up for decades and abused by the guards and the other prisoners. If it is > >the latter; most perps will get off. There are no easy choices. > > > > > I know, but does that mean I cannot advocate for something else? Certainly you can. But, IMHO, responsible advocation involves working to understand both the pluses and minuses of the course one advocates. It also involoves advocating things that can practically be done, and accepting consequences of people institutiong policies that one advocates. > >In conclusion, I think that ranking wrong actions, and considering systems > >has its uses. The implementation of your suggestion for punishing those > >guilty of harming other humans will make you responsible for harming > >humans. If you support it, and humans are harmed as a result, then you > >share the responsibility. > > > > > Yes and I take that responsibillity every day and very gravely. I want > to be able to look in the mirror and live with myself knowing I acted to > the absolute best of my abillities. And much to my chagrin I fail again > and again and again. But I learn each time a great deal. How about you? I've got a fairly strong reputation for being self-critical. One person I disagree with regularly told me that I am harder on myself than anyone he has ever met. But, that does not mean I'm always objective. Self analysis has its limits; its hard to see one's own blind spots. That's one of > >This isn't to fault you, I also support that. But, I do so with my eyes > >open, knowing that I can only defend my actions by the limits to the > >choices that I have. > > > Remains the question, how honest are you to yourself in that respect. Me > I'm brutally honest. But, that particular question is open to discussion; to analysis. What are the choices and the consequences of those choices. With all due respect, you seem to avoid that type of analysis in debates here. Going on feelings to answer questions of fact is not a good way to maintain > >If we have no punishment, then more innocent people > >will be harmed. Thus, I make a hard choice between bad and worse. This is > >the argument you are hearing from folks like Gautam. > > > Not good enough. Now *you* are being an apologist. For the state the > world is in today. :o) No, things can be better. There are things I want changed. But, I feel that criticizing people who actually are trying to make things better because they aren't doing things perfectly is counter-productive. There is a saying in engineering: the best is always the enemy of the good. There are people who hold out for a prefect design, and end up doing nothing trying to achieve perfection. Sloppy quick work doesn't cut it, but there is a point where one needs to know that the design is enough of an improvement to get out in the field and just run with it. > It never is, and it is therefor even harder to make those choices. But > we have to start somewhere don't we? But where? You seem to argue for starting with a dream of utopia. I'm arguing for seeing what we can improve today. Saying that there should be a way to do things better doesn't help. It can be especially vexing when it comes from the European Union that has decided to still let the United States be responsible for defending its interests, while feeling free to criticize how the United States does it. To me doing the right thing involves taking the responsibility to make hard choices and then the responsibility for the consequences. I think a good starting point would be to go back through my analysis of KEP and discuss where you think things could be done differently. Or by doing a contrast and compare between the US, the Nazis and the Soviet Union. If you have another suggestion, I'd be interested in hearing it. Dan M. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
