----- Original Message ----- From: "Maru Dubshinki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Apr 8, 2005 10:16 AM, Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Raymond Brown, in the "Birth of The Messiah" argues that this is a > > reasonable scenario. He discusses the theological reasons for including > > virgin birth in the infancy narratives...and thinks that they are not very > > convincing. There's other bits of evidence in scripture, like Jesus being > > called "the son of Mary" instead of "the son of Joseph" in Nazareth. He > > argues that there might have been some irregularities in the timing of the > > birth of Jesus. The obvious way for this to be possible, still allowing > > for Mary and Joseph to be honorable within their culture, is for Mary and > > Joseph to be fooling around after their betrothal but before "he took her > > into his home." According to Brown, this sort of activity for people who > > are betrothed was probably within social norms. > > > > Before I end this, I should do justice to Brown...in that he argued that > > Jesus' birth was probably somewhat irregular...with this as one possible > > explanation. Given the presence of Jesus' family in the early Christian > > church, it is reasonable to assume that some knowledge of the circumstances > > of his birth existed as the oral infant narratives were developed. Since it > > is probable that the Septuagint was the scripture used by the early church > > (it is multiply quoted after all) it would be reasonable to think that this > > passage would be related to Jesus by his followers. > > > > Dan M. > > And even more reasonable to think the collaters and writers and > mythmakers of the Gospels merely drew on the long tradition of Middle > Eastern 'virgin births' origins of various heroes and stong men, and > used it for Jesus. Well, the argument that the virgin birth is in the infancy narratives is not without merit. The gospel writers have clearly written their narratives with theology in mind elsewhere, so it is important to ask the question whether the virgin birth is the infancy narratives should be viewed theologically, and if so what is the theological statement about Jesus. The two arguments against this are: 1) The New Testament writers generally did not appeal to "pagan" sources of authority. Scripture was seen as authorities, not other writings. A reading of the New Testament shows that the evangelists did presume some knowledge of the Old Testament. It is regularly appealed to for authority. I cannot recall other examples of reference to pagan narratives for authority (Paul uses the unknown God, but that's not the same sort of thing). 2) There are other hints of Jesus having a somewhat irregular birth. I gave the main one I know...the reference to him as the son of Mary, not his father Joseph by his old neighbors. I should point out that I'm not arguing for a literal interpretation of the infancy narratives. Indeed, I use these narratives when teaching Confirmation class to get the kids to start reading scripture in a less literal fashion. I break the class into two teams and tell each to put one of the narratives in their own words. We find that they have two very different stories...which leads to worthwhile discussion. So, my point is that, while there are clearly non-historical and theological elements to the infancy narratives, a rich oral tradition (such as the one that most likely underlies these narratives) can include stories told by people who were well aware that the birth of Jesus was not more than 9 months after the marriage of Joseph and Mary. Personally, I could be persuaded either way on this question. One could indeed argue that someone who's knowledge of Isaiah is from the Septuagint and who is aware of the other virgin birth narratives could weave this into the tradition relied upon by Luke and Matthew. But, it is also possible that Christians had to defend the irregular birth of Jesus. Dan M. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
