On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:13:49 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote > IOW, it's all about faith. ;) The above is a much "better" answer > than many might have given.
"Thank you." > Here's something else, then. What if there were Iraqis praying for > an outcome that could only have been possible if Wes didn't survive? Or anybody! I suspect there were prayers for various people to be elected POTUS last fall. I stopped myself from doing that and decided to pray to accept whatever outcome happened. To the extent that I succeed at letting go of my attachments to outcomes, I think I'm a better person. On the other hand, I certainly find compassion for those who lose faith after a terrible thing that God seems to have been able to prevent. I know a mother whose son was killed on very his first mission in Iraq, in one of those against-all-odds accident. She says she can't get over the fact that it was such an unlikely event (the accident) and lost faith in God. > Ostensibly anyone who prays (except possibly a Satanist) is praying > to fundamentally the same deity as everyone else. Does that > statement make sense to you, or are you of the persuasion that some > religions have the right god and others don't? That is a difficult question that I avoid as much as possible... ;-) But I'm serious, as it strikes me as a how-many-angels-can-dance sort of thing. It's not really any of my business, I tend to believe. If your higher power is the sofa, go for it, I say. See how it works for you. > IOW is it the heart that is heard, or is it the clacking of > beads/burning of incense/intoning of litany that reaches the deity's > notice? To me, that's a different question. The first thing that comes to mind is that I hope (and pray!) that what is heard is God's will, by me. Even at church, when we talk about prayer, many of us tend to forget that it is a conversation, not a monologue. My religion teaches that God helps us find the words to pray and even answers the unspoken prayers and those for which we have no words. As for me, if I can keep it simple, pray to God instead of Santa Claus, and take the time to shut up and listen, I'm doing well. > It's clear in scripture, but it could be argued that scripture is > interested more in solidifying a body politic than it is in > disseminating objective truth. That word "objective" seems odd there. And yes, it could be argued. > Thus when a people's prayers are > answered it's because their god is on their side; when the prayers > aren't answered it's because (1) they're astray; or (2) their deity > is testing/tempering/delaying/whatevering them. Yes, well, it is easy to confuse God with Santa Claus. Santa-ists seem more dangerous than Satanists. (Ho, ho, ho.) I don't mean Christmas, I mean the attitude that we get what we want if we're good. I think God is a better parent than that. > > I didn't say that God was in charge of all things, only involved. > > I thought you wrote that the universe would grind to a halt without > a deity. That seems a lot more than involved to me. That reminds me > of a god that is (for instance) constantly supplying propulsive > force to keep the planets in motion. I have to have gasoline for my car to go, but that doesn't mean the gasoline is in charge. Not a great metaphor, as gasoline is unintelligent, but perhaps that explains what I'm saying? > No, of course not -- but to they who do self-start, help is not > denied, correct? I sure hope not, as I'm a bit of a serial entrepreneur. I don't know what the relationship between being a self-starter and God is, really. Perhaps a story will help. There is a controversy in Christianity about the extent of grace, between so-called "decision" theology and whatever it is we Lutherans believe, which I'm now tempted to "indecision" theology, but that is just what "they" want! Excuse me, got off track. We believe in grace alone, not indecision. The story is that there's a guy drowning. God throws him a life jacket. Decision theology says the guy has to choose, on his own, to grab the life jacket. We "grace alone" types insist that the power to make the decision and the act of grabbing the life jacket are from God also. Another, similar story. A fellow is in the hospital, dying from something. A doctor (God) comes along with medicine that will save his life and dangles it before the patient. Decision theology says the man has to choose to take the medicine; his fate is in his own hands. Grace alone says that when he reaches out and takes it, that's God at work. As I hope you can see, there's a bit of a difference of opinion about God's presence. And we "grace alone" types are trying to be a bit more humble, which itself is a gift of God, if I manage it at all. Possibly a miracle. > I wasn't trying to be insulting or anything -- it might really be of > interest to you to look into the teachings of Islam if you haven't > yet. There are some real similarities between it and Pauline > adherence. (I suppose all the Abrahamic religions would have that > resonance, but the echoes really are deep and startling.) I expect that there is great truth and value in all of the world's great religions. For example, my prayer life has been strengthened, I think, by learning about Buddhist ideas and methods for emptying myself, which is one of the ways to listen in prayer. > You forgot to add "in my opinion". ;) Oh, sure, in *your* opinion. Nick _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
