--- Andrew Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gautam Mukunda wrote: > > No, the question is the exact opposite. Why is it > > that you claim that it's _only_ America that acts > only > > in its self-interest, and everyone else gets a > pass? > > Point out where I said that. No one else gets a free > pass.
Really? Then when did you mention the behavior of other countries, which are clearly acting for reasons of corruption or avarice, with far better evidence than anything for the US. Where did you mention this _even once_, in between your heated condemnations of - as far as I can tell - anything and everything the US does in the world? > Look, I am not a "War for Oil" theorist, not in a > direct sense, but you > can't deny that if Saddam was a dictator in some > oil-free tinpot African > state, we would not be having this conversation, cos > he would still be > in power. You're not? Yet below you make the most facile of War for Oil arguments about the Sudan, of all places. That's remarkable. At any rate, so what? Oil is power. A state with oil is more important than one without oil, all other things being equal. Your point has relevance if and only if you believe that force can be used only when it is irrelevant to, or actually opposed to, the national interest. > Umm, and after the US intervention, I will leave you > to guess who would > have 'new' massive oil contracts with the 'new' > Sudanese government. Gee, Andrew, do you _think_ this might be why I don't believe you when you claim not to be anti-American? Do you seriously want to claim that helping in genocide (France, Russia, China) and trying to stop genocide (the US) are the same thing, morally? I guess being saved by Americans is worse than being killed by someone else, or something? If you're not a "War for Oil" theorist, then this is a pretty crazy argument. If you are, it still is, but at least it's consistent. > > You have a funny way of showing it. You know, I > > constantly hear, "I like America" from people who > > never have anything good to say about it and who > > oppose everything it does in the world - > particularly > > when they are the _beneficiaries_ of what it does > in > > the world. You'll forgive me if the simple > statement > > doesn't quite convince me one way or the other. > > > > Well, that is your choice. I would not even be > arguing about this if I > did not feel strongly about freedom and democracy, > of which America is a > great champion. Ah yes, the rote statement. You just think, though, that in the Sudan we're trying to stop a genocide because of the oil there. It couldn't possibly be because _we think genocide is bad_. > > And how am I supposed to "show it"? Well, looking at the Sudan and saying, "Gee, I prefer the people who are trying to stop the genocide to the people who are trying to help it, even though the people who are trying to stop it are Americans" would be a start. > No, it can't be refuted because it is, in fact, too > late to try any other approach. Since no one has suggested anything that even vaguely resembles another approach with any sort of reasonable possibility of success, this is pointless. You can't oppose something with nothing. You can't say, I want to get rid of Saddam but I want to do it without war. Well, I want the tooth fairy to do it, but since that isn't happening, let's try something that might work. > Opposing the invasion, was, > surprisingly > enough, opposing the invasion. And opposing genocide is, surprisingly enough, opposing genocide, except when the US does it, right? >As a consequence, he > may have stayed in > power, I accept that, but I did not "favour" him. > > Andrew Well, that's more honest than some people. No one said you favored him. That's the difference between saying that's what you wanted, and that's the _effect_ of what you wanted. If you choose an action, you choose the consequences of that action. You can't separate them, however much you want to. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Freedom is not free" http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
