Rodders, You take life too serious. (and I have a feeling you like to discuss :-)
Lighten up. If a TD doesn't want to reward the best spirited team, they shouldn't. No one is forcing them to. Allow the rest of us to celebrate the team which others think has the best Spirit. And if we do, let's use the most objective system available. Now in response to some of your remarks (I also don't shun away from a good discussion): >in the BULA scoring system, it is also >apparently spirited to "Avoid frequently calling non-obvious travels and >picks" - but what if it isn't obvious and so needs to be called! isn't that >why we sometimes make calls - because they are NOT obvious! Please read don't ignore the word "frequently". Frequently is not "sometimes". Have you never played a team that the moment you throw they call "travel" even though they are marking you hard and have no way to really know if you did or not. And they do that almost every throw? Spirited? No. The wording was carefully chosen. (disclosure: I was the driving force behind the new BULA/WFDF SOTG scoring system and we worked on it for more than a year, analyzing responses from the previous BULA system as well as analyzing SOTG discussions on BritDisc, ED, and rec.sport.disc, etc...) >so in summary: >a: we shouldn't reward people for something that is expected >b: even if we wanted to, any scoring system will be interpreted too many >ways by different people for it to be the basis of a prize But in your first email you said we should do the scoring. So what good is that if you think that the score doesn't represent the facts? Sounds like a futile exercise to me. Either you score and use the outcome, or you don't score at all. We should celebrate good Spirit using a system that is as objective as possible and show 'offenders' where they went wrong so they can improve. Spirit rules! See you on the beach. Patrick van der Valk President - Beach Ultimate Lovers Association http://beachultimate.org/blog -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of peter robert wright Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:44 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BD] do we need spirit prizes at all? > :-D > > Why celebrate anything? Best clothes design? Top country to live in? > Needed? > No. Good and fun? Yes. Same for SOTG. not really. why do we have, say, a 'top country to live in' label? 1. it means we can emulate what that city does. 2. being told that a country is the top country to live in helps us practically, in that we might then live there or visit that country. 3. it also makes people in that country feel good. re: 2 and 3: the only way i can emulate the top-spirited team, or learn anything about spirit from them is by playing or watching them. i learn nothing by JUST knowing that they are top spirited. in which case, just naming them as top-spirited teaches me nothing about spirit. if i played them, i'd have learnt, and the accolade adds no new information. teams' spirit reputations do NOT come from winning spirit - they come from experiences that people have had of playing that team. so you might argue that naming top-spirited team is important, because it means that people can go and deliberately watch them to learn lessons about spirit - but i'm afraid that really doesn't happen, and i can't see that happening! i will watch other teams because i know they are good at frisbee, because, it's frisbee i like to watch, not nice people! this leaves the last option - 3 - but that makes the prize merely an exercise in ego-massage, and is that why we play in a spirited way???? surely not. > No it is not 100% 'needed' but why not > put the spot light on the team that plays with the most respect, fairness, > and everything else that SOTG entails? > here's a reason why not. we shouldn't put the spotlight on such a team because the scoring system is too subjective and too reliant on factors like whether "In an important situation they admitted that the opponent was probably right" (what if this doesn't happen in the game). also in the BUSA scoring system, it is also apparently spirited to "Avoid frequently calling non-obvious travels and picks" - but what if it isn't obvious and so needs to be called! isn't that why we sometimes make calls - because they are NOT obvious! if you want to be fairer, i guess it would be better if teams that beat a certain score ALL won spirit, because the system has too large a margin for error. i think this is a separate point to my original email, but i also think it's a good one. viz. if you can't score spirit in a reliable way, why give one prize to one team?? so in summary: a: we shouldn't reward people for something that is expected b: even if we wanted to, any scoring system will be interpreted too many ways by different people for it to be the basis of a prize rodders > > > Patrick van der Valk > President - Beach Ultimate Lovers Association > http://beachultimate.org/blog > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of peter robert wright > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:40 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [BD] do we need spirit prizes at all? > > all this discussion about scoring got me thinking...... > > yes, spirit is important. obviously > yes, all (espec new) players should be inculcated in what spirit is and > what > fair play is by their peers/captains. > yes, we should care about whether games are spirited or not. > yes, we should discuss the spirit of games during and after games with each > other. > > but... > > - do we need a spirit winner of the competition? > - is rewarding people with a trophy (or some alcohol!) for acting > according to an assumed and fundamental premise of the sport what we > should > be doing? > > i'm not so sure this idea of a spirit winner is such a good thing. > > to reward the most spirited team seems to me to be like rewarding the > person > who commits the least murders....(i realise that's an imperfect analogy, so > be kind!). > > my point is not dissimilar to (though hopefully less controversial than) > chris rock's famous rant in his stand-up set: > > *N*****s always want credit for some sh*t they're supposed to do....They'll > say something like, "Yeah, well I take care of my kids." You're > *supposed*to, you dumb motherf***er. "I ain't never been to jail." > Whaddya want? A > cookie? You're not *supposed* to go to jail, you low-expectation-having > motherf***er!* > > but ditching the prize doesn't necessarily mean not doing spirit scores. > couldn't we.... > > 1. score the opposition (however we deem best), either anonymously or > not, > 2. hand them in to TD > 3. then the TD *JUST gives them out to the relevant team captains at the > end* - so i would be given fire's scores from other teams. *no prize, > but > feedback nonetheless. * > > thoughts??? > > rodders > __________________________________________________ > BritDisc mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
