Can I clarify I wasn't suggesting that sending it "back" should be anything other than the last resort.
What I was highlighting is the fact that the rules already covers situations where is agreement can't be reached hence the need not to involve an official. The addition of officials to ultimate is that it's a different way to resolve the same situation (players not agreeing a call) and personally I would prefer the original solution, rather than having a third party make a decision which wouldn't necessarily be the correct one (the same way sending the disc back isn't always correct). Also I think this is exactly the point of the Rylands tournament - it was our first taste of something different and allows to have an objective view of how officials could affect ultimate. The point of the Rylands tournament was to try something new and generate discussion from memory, this it has done to great and affect up the north on north. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- AstraZeneca UK Limited is a company incorporated in England and Wales with registered number: 03674842 and a registered office at 15 Stanhope Gate, London W1K 1LN. Confidentiality Notice: This message is private and may contain confidential, proprietary and legally privileged information. If you have received this message in error, please notify us and remove it from your system and note that you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. Any unauthorised use or disclosure of the contents of this message is not permitted and may be unlawful. Disclaimer: Email messages may be subject to delays, interception, non-delivery and unauthorised alterations. Therefore, information expressed in this message is not given or endorsed by AstraZeneca UK Limited unless otherwise notified by an authorised representative independent of this message. No contractual relationship is created by this message by any person unless specifically indicated by agreement in writing other than email. Monitoring: AstraZeneca UK Limited may monitor email traffic data and content for the purposes of the prevention and detection of crime, ensuring the security of our computer systems and checking Compliance with our Code of Conduct and Policies. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Sion Scone Sent: 22 April 2009 13:28 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [BD] Rylands: The Aftermath > As for their opinions on contested calls we always have the option to send it > back as though the "foul" never occurred therefore negating the need once > again! Matt I disagree with this. Don't forget that having the disc sent back means that self-refereeing has *failed*. When there is a strip, foul, etc, the result should be a goal / turnover / possession kept, etc. The disc should never go back if it can be avoided. When it does, it just means that something has gone wrong with the player's ability to referee themselves. I personally dislike the 30s limit on discussions, I think that some things are far more important than keeping the game flowing (contested strip call in sudden death or similar). I'm not advocating that refs will be able to resolve this - I doubt they will. The players involved generally know what happened, its just that sometimes they will try and interpret things in the manner that benefits them most... Anyway this is a side issue that doesn't really have anything to do with the Rylands event, its more about the application of SOTG to the Ultimate rule set. Sending the disc back should always be the last resort. Brummie PS re: my red card. Wigsy played the ref and got me sent off. Fair play, I got him carded in our first game with an obvious case of conning the ref... and having refs made our matchup far *less* physical than normal! :-) On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:24 PM, Sion Scone <[email protected]> wrote: > Here's my thoughts on refereed ultimate as played at the Rylands this > past weekend. Take it or leave it. :-) > > Firstly, a massive thank you to everyone involved, particularly the > referees who had a difficult (maybe impossible) job, took a lot of > flak, an dealt with it all in a very professional manner. It is > obvious they had been trained, they had practiced and the tournament > had a very professional feel to it; whistle blowers, timekeepers and > scorekeepers were all there, so it was more like a world championships > than a pickup tournament. > > It was a *lot* of fun. Everyone who was there played it in a very > friendly manner; there was plenty of deliberate fouling between > friends and even people who didn't know each other, yet there was > nothing aggro going on at all. Most teams were having a good laugh at > the opportunity to play ultimate in an entirely new way, and it was > very good natured. In normal ultimate every player is a referee, so it > was nice to be able to do two things differently this weekend; 1) not > have to think about the rules for once (if you did something wrong > then the ref would blow, right?), and 2) try to gain whatever > advantages you can against a ref that you can't against another person > (i.e. cheat). If the idea of cheating sounds abhorrent then please > bear with me while I explain... > > I don't think, nor have ever thought, that fully refereed ultimate can > replace ultimate in the same manner it is played now. My objective > for the weekend was to see exactly how easy it was to cheat and get > away with it, and to find the level of contact that was acceptable to > the refs. It soon became obvious that when the disc moved quickly it > was far easier to foul on the mark without being seen; this resulted > in fouls on throws that resulted in turnovers which wouldn't have > occurred in a normal game of ultimate: advantage defence. When the > disc moved slowly (such as swings, dumps etc with few players behind > the disc) the refs had a better view of the action and even small > infractions (disc space seemed a common one) were harshly punished > compared to normal ultimate (mlu: 2 "disc space" calls = sending off; > ultimate: 2 "disc space" calls = foul, reset stall): advantage > offence. Having said that, it was far easier to get away with fouls > on the mark at the start of the count before the refs got into > position; one quick foul then step away while the player on the disc > appeals to the ref. There was a lot of appealing for decisions, a lot > more than I expected, and the refs didn't really know how to deal with > it - they were very tentative sometimes which made it difficult to > play to the whistle, as sometimes the whistle stopped play and > sometimes it didn't. Sometimes fouls, strips, etc were given when > they weren't and vice versa, but that kind of thing will probably even > out over the course of a game. The refs stalled far too slowly and let > lots of rather blatant travels (particularly changing direction on > catches) go: advantage offence. They were also far too harsh on > incidental contact, particularly on contested under cuts: again, > advantage offence. If fouling on the mark wasn't seen then breaking > the mark became quite a dangerous option; teams seemed very cagey > about breaking marks aggressively because small contact that might not > be seen by the ref, and a lot of throws resulted in turns that would > have been called back in ultimate. > > As for how the games played vs ultimate, it was quite different. The > rules for OB pulls and offsides are absolutely brilliant and should be > used in ultimate; virtually no teams were offside compared to in a > normal game of ultimate when almost every pull has someone offside on > O or D. New discs were provided whenever the disc went out of bounds, > and the O had only 7 seconds to get the disc in play following a turn, > which resulted in a lot less downtime during points, which was great > and kept the games fast. Because breaking the mark was a lot more > risky, offence was a lot more cagey and generally involved swinging > the disc a lot until a good deep threat became available. Any dodgy > throws deep usually resulted in turnovers because it was too difficult > to pull the disc down in a crowd when you're being fouled, and too > hard for the refs to see it. Its also a lot harder to get open when > someone is holding your arm :-) > > I'd like to see this become an annual event: All-Star Refereed > Ultimate. I don't think it will ever replace ultimate so you can stop > panicking, but it was a lot of fun. I would like to see the rules > become streamlined (I don't think there is a need for two types of > fouls, and a whistle should always stop play) and think they should > mimic the rules of ultimate more closely (things like holding > someone's arm while they're cutting or in the stack should be dealt > with more harshly, while minor infractions such as disc space and > double teaming needs to be made less harsh). The refs could make > their own lives easier by being harsh on anyone who argues with them, > rather than being bullied (as happened a little during the first North > v Midlands game when we spent half the time with both teams shouting > at the refs). There should also be a points cap, and the time that > the first half runs over should be taken from the second half (if > there are ten seconds on the clock when the point starts and the point > lasts 3 minutes of game time, then the second half should be 3 mins > shorter); some of the games were really long. I did enjoy the long > gap between games though, having one game off meant having a 2 1/2 hr > break, which was the kind of thing you usually only get at big > international tournaments. > > I think that having referees can stop people cheating in the same way > that they can in self-refereed ultimate, but it just opens up new ways > for those people to cheat when the ref's back is turned (3-4 refs on > one pitch can't see everything), and of course they will miss things > that happen that are blatant to both players (such as contact on the > mark or strips). Conclusion: referees should not be used in ultimate; > but refereed ultimate makes for a very enjoyable weekend. :-) Thanks > again to those who made it happen. > > Brummie > __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
