garr ... too many email accounts ... my personal view and not the Club's! apologies for the spam, direct any replies to me here.
Thanks, Luke T On 3 April 2012 22:36, St Albans Ultimate Frisbee Club <[email protected]> wrote: > The Official UKU guidelines from what I can tell (please correct me if > I'm wrong) are: > > UKU Guide for TD's > http://www.ukultimate.com/files/How_to_run_a_UKUA_tour_5.pdf > Pitch Quality - P7 > "Have a minimum of 5m between perimeter lines and adjacent pitches or > other obstacles." > > & from the Generic Risk Assessment: > http://www.ukultimate.com/system/files/UKU%20Generic%20Risk%20Assessments.xls > 1.07 - Players may collide with spectators > "Spectators are advised (and sometimes required) to stay back from the > sideline of the pitch. Anyone within 2m of a sideline should be able > to move quickly and maintain their attention on the game." > > However, in my experience these are rarely met for all pitches at UKU > Tournaments. For example in Cardiff, which is a great venue and I only > mention it as it's fresh in my memory and not criticising Thac who ran > another excellent tournament there: > > - Many of the pitches were closer than 5m apart from side / endzone lines > - Many of the pitches had concrete curbs / drain covers / stakes from > fences within a couple of meters of the sideline > - Plenty of kit, players & spectators crammed into narrow sideline spaces > > I myself have struggled to do so at tournaments I've run with Midlands > Regionals last year having some cricket nets 3m out the back of the > endzone on one of the pitches and a hedge 4m from the sideline on > another. > > I currently see 3 ways forward for this: > > 1. The UKU require TD's to stick rigidly to the guidelines. > > This would mean that we see far fewer pitches available, even at large > venues like Cardiff meaning that tournament sizes would have to be > restricted further. It would also make it more expensive to run > tournaments as you'd be hiring the same space but accommodating less > teams ... On the plus side we'd have some safer & smoother (no need to > clear lines) tournaments. > > 2. There is some leeway introduced in reducing pitch sizes from H&S > point of view, when required. > > I have heard that this is under discussion at the WFDF level due to > the problems in finding suitable venues for large international > tournaments. This is however a pretty touchy / tricky subject as > changing the stringent playing field requirements can potentially > change the game ... not to mention trying to keep to some sort of > standard, even at a individual tournament ... It might be a good short > term solution to meet the H&S requirements while the wider topic is > addressed ... > > 3. No change ... > > Probably the worst of the 3 given that it leaves players, TD's & the > UKU in an unsafe situation. However I'm sure we will all continue to > be vigilant at tournaments and perhaps a little more aware of the > dangers of sitting with our backs to an endzone just 1m away or > bringing bags onto a narrow (less than 5m) sideline space ... let > alone our children. > > No easy solution and plenty of discussion to be had, with inevitably > more work for the overworked UKU at some point in all of this. > > Luke T > > > On 3 April 2012 21:03, Alex Rogers <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hey, >> >> Another parent here. >> >> I'm fairly sure that there are guidelines for gaps between pitches at UKU >> sanctioned events. The guys at Cardiff always put on a great tourney and >> currently there are no requirements to allow enough space for >> spectators/children around the pitches, though some of the pitches did have >> ample space around them. >> >> It's probably technically the UKU that's liable, but we certainly see it as >> our responsibility to keep our child safe over the weekend (and during the >> week the that point). Our team mates helped out too, but that's cause >> they're great didn't mind. >> >> It's certainly not easy to play your best and keep focussed as a team while >> looking after a kid as well - someone mentioned supervised areas for kids - >> this would likely drive the price of tournaments up or limit the venues to >> places that had space for this. Might be worth a show of hands to see how >> many parents would take advantage of this and how much they would be >> willing to pay >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Paul Holden <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> As a parent as well I'm afraid that I have to disagree with Nicole on >>> this. The space between pitches is not the place to have a small child, >>> even a supervised one. At most uk venues I would argue that the space is >>> not really sufficient to have any type of spectator but we are where we >>> are. To say that the ukua or any player should be liable for injury to a >>> child put in that position by their parents does not seem to show much >>> respect for the rights of other players to play the game or much sense >>> given that no amount of financial compensation will make up for a serious >>> injury to your child. >>> >>> Sorry if this comes over as a bit heavy but the level of disregard for the >>> players on the field by un-involved/semi-involved persons on the sidelines >>> has been a bugbear of mine for a while now. The space between pitches is >>> not likely to increase in the near future unless litigation, or the threat >>> of such, forces it. Therefore the correct response from the community >>> should be to take a good hard look at ourselves and how we use that space. >>> >>> ------------------ >>> regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Nicole Cozens <[email protected]> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:33:58 >>> To: Jazz<[email protected]>; britdisc<[email protected]> >>> Reply-To: Nicole Cozens <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [BD] Rules of ultimate >>> >>> As a parent who took a little person to mixed tour, it is a concern. When >>> we played on some pitches, the only place we could set up shop was the 2m >>> spacing between the pitches. Other pitches were much better as there was >>> spacing provided by the cricket square or some other feature that I forget. >>> Obviously as our little person is really quite little (18 months) we made >>> sure there was always someone with her and she didn't go too near the >>> sideline/disc. >>> >>> As my husband and I play on the same team it is inevitable that our >>> daughter will be on the sidelines of our game unless Dan and I play one >>> game on, one game off with each other. We could've set up a space for our >>> daughter at the foot of pitches but that would've had significant playing >>> implications as our team couldn't have looked after Catherine as they were >>> being sideline on the sideline rather than the footline.... >>> >>> I think with just a little more space between the pitches it would >>> certainly ease the concerns of parents, plus lessen the laying out on to >>> bikes/nalgenes/other things that cause owiness. >>> >>> I think the other emailers are right that the problem with this is the >>> trying to shoehorn a bazillion teams in to a small space >>> . >>> How do the other side live? What space is available at North American top >>> tournaments (ECC and the such?). It would be interesting to compare. >>> Certainly at the international tournaments I've played at the spacing >>> between pitches has seemed slightly bigger. Where do the guidelines come >>> from? UKU or WFDF? >>> >>> Re: legality I'm fairly sure we have personal liability covered by the UKU >>> so if someone landed on Catherine and we got persuaded by a no win no fee >>> solicitor type thing I think our UKU membership covers such an eventuality, >>> and the liability of the TDs presuming everyone followed the guidelines. >>> Si? >>> >>> Nicole >>> Brighton etc. >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Jazz <[email protected]> >>> To: britdisc <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2012 2:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [BD] Rules of ultimate >>> >>> This is an issue that's probably been swept under the carpet for a while >>> now. >>> >>> I'm sure we've all seen players collide with bags, spectators, other >>> players etc, with varying degrees of injury. My own personal pet hate is >>> when players dump their bicycles between adjoining pitches, but that would >>> all be nothing compared to landing on someone's kid. >>> >>> In any such event, who might be liable - the player, the UKU (as the >>> official sanctioning body of the tournament), or the TD for not enforcing >>> distance guidelines? >>> >>> Demand from teams encourages TDs to squeeze in as many fields as possible. >>> Perhaps this potential liability, or some pressure from the UKU might >>> encourage them to ensure proper pitch spacing. >>> >>> That said, I think there's also a point about us as players respecting the >>> sidelines and distances too. >>> >>> All the best folks >>> >>> Jazz >>> Thundering Herd >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 Apr 2012, at 14:09, Luke Tobiasiewicz <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Regarding kids ... Despite the relatively small chance of discs >>> > hitting kids on the sideline there is a much greater likelihood of >>> > players running into / jumping on or laying through spectators on the >>> > sideline. I have seen a lot of examples of this including layouts into >>> > a buggy (luckly empty), through a seated spectator (not so lucky) as >>> > well as personally landing on a small kid (I was pretty shaken and >>> > luckily no lasting damage). >>> > >>> > I know there are UKU & WFDF guidelines in place regarding distances >>> > between pitches & other things (5m) and location of spectators (within >>> > 2m should be able to move out the way quickly). Perhaps these need to >>> > be enforced more strictly on / by TD's ... perhaps the rules needs to >>> > be tightened up somewhat ... eg: Nothing to be within 2m of the pitch: >>> > bags, people, waterbottles, discs. This would have the added benefit >>> > of reducing the number of times you have to ask spectators to clear a >>> > sideline ... or kick bags out the way ... or wind yourself (or worse) >>> > landing on one of those dammed unbreakable nalgenes :-) >>> > >>> > Luke T >>> > >>> > On Apr 3, 2012 1:03 PM, "Paul Waite" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> no change in rules in turnovers section 13 of WFDF 2009 >>> >> 13.1.7. the thrower has not released the disc before the marker first >>> starts to say the >>> >> word “ten” in the stall count (a “stall-out”) >>> >> >>> >> V >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ________________________________ >>> >> From: Felix <[email protected]> >>> >> To: [email protected] >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2012, 12:35 >>> >> Subject: Re: [BD] Rules of ultimate >>> >> >>> >> Hi Dan, >>> >> >>> >> You'll find a lot of people claim the rules have recently changed, this >>> is >>> >> usually because they trust somebody who has recently got the rules >>> wrong. >>> >> I've seen people I trust get the rules wrong, and I've gotten the rules >>> >> wrong in at least one important situation myself - memory and >>> >> interpretation are never perfect, so instead I recommend reading through >>> >> the current rules at the start of each season, as rule discussions >>> during >>> >> games are almost inevitable it seems - and you want at least half a leg >>> to >>> >> stand on. >>> >> To my knowledge there have been no WFDF rule changes since 2009. >>> >> >>> >> Regarding kids on the sidelines, I also worry about that - I've seen >>> many a >>> >> high disc come down hard and fast five meters out the side of the >>> pitch... >>> >> but I guess it's a question of likelihood, and in reality we're talking >>> >> about 1 in 10,000 chance it'll come down on a buggy or something, if >>> one is >>> >> on the sideline. Still, I don't like those odds (though I did just make >>> >> them up). >>> >> >>> >> I've seen odd tournaments / leagues in the USA where they have areas >>> where >>> >> kids and toddlers are being supervised - not sure whether it's a >>> voluntary >>> >> thing with parents taking shifts or what, but as the sport (and thus the >>> >> players of the sport) mature, perhaps it's something someone should >>> think >>> >> about making happen over here too. >>> >> >>> >> Felix >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On 31 March 2012 10:20, Daniel Ferneyhough <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Morning Britdisc, >>> >>> >>> >>> After hearing a few times over the past couple of weeks about changes >>> to >>> >>> rules, specifically stall outs being the n of ten instead of t, I went >>> on a >>> >>> search for clarification. As yet I haven't found anything in the 2009 >>> wfdf >>> >>> rules (the current rules used by ukua), please can someone confirm deny >>> >>> this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Also, at mt1 last week, I noticed a number of small children on the >>> >>> sidelines of games, not always directly supervised. I was wondering >>> what >>> >>> the ukua's stance is on this and what measures they have in place to >>> >>> mitigate the risk of injury by player or disc. Whilst I completely >>> >>> understand parents bringing their children to competition, when they >>> are >>> >>> sitting so close to sidelines there is a risk that they could get >>> caught up >>> >>> in play. Whilst this hasn't happened yet, this could have terrible >>> >>> consequences for the child, the players involved and the sport in the >>> uk. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dan Ferneyhough >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> >>> BritDisc mailing list >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> >>> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> >>> >>> >> __________________________________________________ >>> >> BritDisc mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> >> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> >> __________________________________________________ >>> >> BritDisc mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> >> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> > >>> > __________________________________________________ >>> > BritDisc mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> BritDisc mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> __________________________________________________ >>> BritDisc mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> __________________________________________________ >>> BritDisc mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >>> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed >>> >> __________________________________________________ >> BritDisc mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc >> Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed > > > > -- > St Albans Ultimate > www.stalbansultimate.co.uk > 07709768069 > > __________________________________________________ > BritDisc mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc > Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __________________________________________________ BritDisc mailing list [email protected] http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
