On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 12:22:28AM +0100, Ondrej Mikle wrote:
> Zdar,
> 
> ku koncu sa to s otazkami hodne zacalo tahat k pravnym veciam a plausible
> deniability.
> 
> Plausible deniability az na specialne pripady (napr. provozovani Tor exit 
> node)
> nepomoze, podobne ako to nepomohlo Manningovi s OTR. Celkom dobre to ilustruje

Vies o jednom pripade, kedy bol niekto realne stihany a kriminalizovany za
prevadzku Tor exit-nodeu? Teda myslim normalne krajiny zapadneho sveta, nie
nejaky Pakistan, ci Iran. 

Ja neviem o ziadnom pripade v EU a EFF si mysli to iste v pripade US:

https://www.torproject.org/eff/tor-legal-faq.html

Has anyone ever been sued or prosecuted for running Tor?

No, we aren’t aware of anyone being sued or prosecuted in the United States for 
running a Tor relay. Further, we believe that running a Tor relay — including 
an exit relay that allows people to anonymously send and receive traffic — is 
lawful under U.S. law.

Takze ocividne ta konspiracna "plausible deniability" funguje, inak by uz 
vsetci prevadzkovatelia exit nodeov uz boli vo vazeni.

Podobne "plausible deniability" funguje v pripade "hidden volumes" (truecrypt).

To, ze niekto skonci vo vazeni, lebo "niekto iny" si mysli, ze na tom 
sifrovanom disku ma detsku pornografiu a pritom to nevie nijako dokazat 
(lebo nevie k nemu heslo), je podla mna uplne potlacenie individualnych slobod
a je to uplne nespravne.

> Jon Callas na [email protected]:
> 
> > There is no such thing as plausible deniability in a legal context.
> > 
> > Plausible deniability is a term that comes from conspiracy theorists (and 
> > like many things contains a kernel of truth) to describe a political 
> > technique where everyone knows what happened but the people who did it just 
> > assert that it can't be proven, along with a wink and a nudge.
> > 
> > But to get to the specifics here, I've spoken to law enforcement and border 
> > control people in a country that is not the US, who told me that yeah, they 
> > know all about TrueCrypt and their assumption is that *everyone* who has 
> > TrueCrypt has a hidden volume and if they find TrueCrypt they just get 
> > straight to getting the second password. They said, "We know about that 
> > trick, and we're not stupid."

"We are not stupid" znamena, ze s tym dokazu nieco robit? :-)

Chcu drzat daneho cloveka nekonecne dlhu dobu, kym nepovie heslo?

A nutit ho povedat "druhe heslo", ked nemaju ziadnu istotu, ze to druhe heslo
vobec existuje a nevedia mu to nijako dokazat?

> Rovnako ako neuspeje argumentacia "ja som len generoval nahodne cisla a vzdy 
> mi
> z toho vysiel HTTP POST request". U sudu sa zavola sudny znalec a on to 
> rozhodne
> nezozere.

OK, tak toto je statistika. Je dost mala pravdepodobnost, ze mi moj generator
nahodny cisel vygeneruje SQL injection POST request, takze toto sa tazko 
ukecava.

Ak mam ale truecrypt s hidden volume, tak minimalne ja by som to heslo nikdy
nikomu nepovedal nezavisle od toho, co tam mam ulozene - cisto z principu,
lebo som presvedceny o tom, ze ziadna vlada nema pravo intruzivne zasahovat
do mojho sukromia. 

Pavol
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