peter, i agree with your views. you are also accurate with your
various statements regarding my report on the Chestnut Palmfly
(Elymnias obnubila): my desire to collect that specimen because it
was an important record, but the need to abide by the rules and
therefore my decision not to collect the specimen, and also the
national need to allow bona fide researchers to collect zoological
specimens wherever and whenever they wish.
i have, in fact, started taking steps towards acquiring collecting
permits in several important states, and should be able to
extensively collect specimens in the future. some of us are also
working towards establishing a modern national research collection,
complete (in the long term) with DNA library for all indian butterfly
taxa and geo-referenced data for every specimen, etc.
also, a module for distributional data that kishen mentioned is
already being developed:
http://ifoundbutterflies.org/general-information/indian-butterfly-distributions
anyway, there are many projects that need to be initiated or
strengthened in order to advance the state of butterfly natural
history and biology. we at the Indian Foundation for Butterflies
(http://ifoundbutterflies.org/general-information/indian-foundation-for-butterflies)
are working towards achieving precisely this goal. it would be great
if you and other serious-minded people join forces with us. will you
be attending the 3rd ALCS at coimbatore in oct. 2010? if you are, we
can discuss various issues and collaborations there.
cheers,
At 4:37 PM +0000 7/28/10, Peter Smetacek wrote:
Dear Kishen,
agree with what you say. What I meant about the species like
hordonia/sandaka, athamas /agraria is not that they cannot be
distinguished, but that all field ids and breeding records where the
researcher competently identified the species ACCORDING TO ACCEPTED
KNOWLEDGE OF THE TIME and reported the information, all that
information is now uncertain with the realisation that what was
earlier athamas is actually two species, same for hordonia, etc.
Taxonomy progressed through the study of external physical features
until the beginning of the 20th century, when the study of genitalia
served to distinguish many species indistinguishable superficially.
At present, mtDNA is gaining increasing acceptance for
distinguishing taxa, so there is no telling which way the
documentation of taxa is going to proceed. In such an event, it is
always better to keep the specimens one has bred, or to have the
specimens examined to report a local checklist, so that in the event
of taxonomic changes, matters can be reliably updated...one does not
mean that one should take every speimen that one sees, but
individuals that contribute to scientific knowledge should certainly
be retained in a well maintained collection.
I refer, for example, to Dr. Kunte's recent record of a new palmfly
for India, published in Journal of Threatened Taxa: he actually held
the specimen in his hand, photographed it and released it. We do not
have an example of that species in any Indian collection. I feel
that the specimen should have been taken and deposited in a National
Collection, eg., the National Forest Insect Collection in Dehra Dun.
I realise that Dr. Kunte was simply keeping within the rules by not
taking a specimen within a protected area. However, I feel there is
need for a change in rules concerning protected areas, so that in
the case of invertebrates, which are largely unworked in India,
accredited research workers like Dr. Kunte should have the leeway or
permission to take specimens of scientifically important taxa which
they might come across by chance in the course of their study and
deposit it with the officer in charge of the protected area, who
should in turn send it along to the Forest ResearchInstitue in Dehra
Dun to be included in the National Collection. Everyone would be
well served that way...
On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:28:12 +0530 wrote
I totally agree. This is something that should be completely left to
the experts. When I say experts, I mean field entomologists who have
permissions for collection and those who know how to preserve those
specimens and who indeed have expertise in identifying them at the
level of Genitalia or say Genome.
In South India, where I visited many entomological departments, the
collections are not only incomplete, but very badly maintained and
some of the specimens are wrongly identified and many of them were
not even identified !!!
Butterfly collection requires lot more dedication and passion and I
certainly don't think the general butterfly enthusiasts will be
interested in this. Of course, there will be many who will blatantly
reject the idea of collection without even realising the importance
of it.
Although I totally agree that we should work towards creating a
complete well-maintained collection, I still do not agree that
collection is the only authentic way for identification. If you
carefully observe any species in the field for decent amount of
time, you will see a pattern which will differentiate it from other
closer species, sub-species and races. And also there will be some
unique feature in their body as well. I mean assuming that a
particular sub-species or race separated out during evolution, it
would have got exposed to relatively different set of environment
and this would reflect both in their behavior and as some unique
feature in their body. We should be patient enough to recognize
these subtle differences. But, yes this would take lot more time to
confirm/associate any unique behavior or feature with a species, but
it is not impossible.
So, a complete collection backed by lot of field studies would be
key in conserving those species.
Coming to the set of species that you mentioned, I am sure Dr. Kunte
can distinguish them with very high accuracy from their photos. He
has done it for Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka. I myself has
sent couple of photos sometime back to this group, on how we can
easily distinguish Polyura athamas and P. agraria. I also sometime
back sent the keys for distinguishing Euploea core and
sylvester, again just using pattern of white spots on them.
Although, I have to catch and release hundreds of them to confirm
this distinguising feature, but it does exist.
Ideal situation would be to set up a small team of experts who visit
all the national parks and properly collect and ID and make it
available to general public. Once we have this in place, general
butterfly enthusiasts can visit these places and do lot of field
studies to identify a unique behavior and feature for each species.
Once we have all this properly archived, we can do away with
collection.
I heard IISc is already doing DNA sequencing for butterflies. I
wrote to one of the students but did not get any reply.
In any case, the kind of website that I was talking about will still
help at large for less confusing species and definitely for my
migratory ones!!!
Kishen
On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Peter Smetacek wrote:
Kishen, taxonomy tends to change down the line: eg., it is nearly
impossible to separate information gathered for Pantoporia hordonia
and P. sandaka; Polyura athamas and P. agraria, Psilogramma
menephron and P. increta, etc, etc. It is always better to have
specimens to examine. That way, no matter which way taxonomy
progresses, the data gathered is never lost. None of our national
collections of Lepidoptera is complete, or, indeed, near complete.
Lots of work needs to be done and to ensure scientific reliability,
if it is specimen based, it will be irrefutable. Photos are useful
up to a point, but not in a country where the Lepidoptera are as
imperfectly known as ours...
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:40:27 +0530 wrote
I think this project is restricted to Europe and UK.
It would be good if we can create an online database, where anyone
can log in and report their sightings. ( Of course these sightings
should be backed up by photos and also some expert to look into the
data)
Probably once there is an establishment of genuinity of sightings by
a particular person, then the expert can relax submitting the photos
for all the species ( I mean except for the difficult to ID or rare
ones).
On the long run it will help in better understading the distribution
and diversity of our regions.
I talked to couple of people but it did not work out.
Probably I will have this once I have my own website, at least for
migratory ones to start with.
Kishen
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:52 AM, Priyadarsanan Dharma Rajan wrote:
From: Entomology Discussion List
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Neil Jones
Sent: 16 July 2010 22:21
To: [email protected]
Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you?
From: Louise Keeling
Sent: 09 July 2010 16:34
To: All Staff
Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you?
Butterflies are both beautiful and vital to the health of our environment.
Their survival is crucial yet they are in serious decline.
Be part of the big butterfly count from the 24th July to the 1st of
August this year and help us gather information to save them.
Just find a place where you might see butterflies, such as a garden
or park, and count the different butterflies you see in just 15
minutes. You can make counts in several places during the week.
Submit your sightings at www.bigbutterflycount.org and you'll
receive 10 per cent off plants when you shop online at M&S. *
Butterflies are disappearing fast and we can't help them without your support.
See the website for details.
Please forward this email to your friends of relatives - the more
people who join in, the more accurate a picture we can build of our
changing butterflies.
Thank you
*Terms and conditions apply. See www.marksandspencer.com/offers for
details.
Lou Keeling
Senior Publicity Officer
[email protected]
Join the big butterfly count and help us take the pulse of nature
24 July - 1 August at www.bigbutterflycount.org
Butterfly Conservation
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--
Krushnamegh Kunte, Ph.D.
Post-doctoral Research Fellow (Kronforst Lab)
FAS Center for Systems Biology
Harvard University
52 Oxford St
Northwest Lab Room 458.40-3
Cambridge, MA 02138, USA.
Ph: (617) 496-0078
Cell: (512) 577-1370
Fax: (617) 495-2196
Email: [email protected]
Other emails: [email protected], [email protected]
Personal website: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~kunte/index.htm
Indian Foundation for Butterflies: http://ifoundbutterflies.org/
Google profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/krushnamegh
--
Enjoy
