I appreciate Kishen Ji's suffering and feelings, but I have also to say some thing which I have seen myself.
Long time back in Assam (Meghalaya was not existing at that time) people use to kill butterflies and use to export them to make money. In these butterfly meets participants surround the poor butterflies and focus the cameras from all directions. The butterflies may not be comfortable ant may affect their life cycle also. A different method needs to be evolve to study them. Regards, Promila To: [email protected] From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:16:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [ButterflyIndia] FW: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? Kishen, I appreciate your suffering caused by the persecution you experienced. However, look at it another way- at least there are groups of local people so interested in protecting their environment that they will conspire to put suspicious people in jail, which is no easy task, since it requires active connivance of local officials. Your intentions were not neferious, so you feel hurt by it. But you can imagine the strong message being sent to people out to emulate Veerappan... What those local groups need is education, so that they realise that the need to collect some invertebrates (and, I suppose, amphibians and fish) is vital to the task of conservation. The lobby that has been propounding sealing off the forests of India from researchers is the same lobby that affirms that India has enough collections of all invertebrates (I remember reading statements in the press to that effect the last time the matter of collecting was occupying newspaper space in 1994). They capped it by saying that the Ladakh Banded Apollo sold for 25000 dollars apiece, since when all butterfly nets are seen as the mark of a big time smuggler. Local groups such as the ones who harassed you believe such clap trap and therefore serious workers are persecuted. Once they see the state of our National Colletions, I am sure they themselves will take nets and go out and collect some invertebrates to salve national pride! On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:17:38 +0530 wrote > Not just that, in Kerala, even if you don't collect, some of the local groups will conspire against you and might put you in jail, if you are not careful enough. Some of the people in this group itself did that with me for no particular reason. And these people who were not even with me at Silent Valley where I was with the forest guards and came back with the ACF or some higher forest officer!!! So, I ask other members in this group to be little more careful while wondering around in the forests of Kerala( especially Northern part), if you are not a localite or don't know local groups, just be extra cautious!!! I had lot of nightmare after that incident and also ended up disposing my collection of over 100+ species of dead butterflies (mostly just broken wings) collected over 6 years, which I used for identification. Kishen On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:21 AM, K.S. Naveen wrote: Dear All, I second the view that collection rules should be amended properly so that it facilitates research. As of now, if even a bonafide researcher collects and establishment will make him feel like as if he has done a cold blooded murder! Warmly KS Naveen --- On Thu, 7/29/10, Krushnamegh Kunte wrote: From: Krushnamegh Kunte Subject: Re: Re: Re: [ButterflyIndia] FW: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 10:06 AM peter, i agree with your views. you are also accurate with your various statements regarding my report on the Chestnut Palmfly (Elymnias obnubila): my desire to collect that specimen because it was an important record, but the need to abide by the rules and therefore my decision not to collect the specimen, and also the national need to allow bona fide researchers to collect zoological specimens wherever and whenever they wish. i have, in fact, started taking steps towards acquiring collecting permits in several important states, and should be able to extensively collect specimens in the future. some of us are also working towards establishing a modern national research collection, complete (in the long term) with DNA library for all indian butterfly taxa and geo-referenced data for every specimen, etc. also, a module for distributional data that kishen mentioned is already being developed: http://ifoundbutter flies.org/ general-informat ion/indian- butterfly- distributions anyway, there are many projects that need to be initiated or strengthened in order to advance the state of butterfly natural history and biology. we at the Indian Foundation for Butterflies (http://ifoundbutte rflies.org/ general-informat ion/indian- foundation- for-butterflies) are working towards achieving precisely this goal. it would be great if you and other serious-minded people join forces with us. will you be attending the 3rd ALCS at coimbatore in oct. 2010? if you are, we can discuss various issues and collaborations there. cheers, At 4:37 PM +0000 7/28/10, Peter Smetacek wrote: Dear Kishen, agree with what you say. What I meant about the species like hordonia/sandaka, athamas /agraria is not that they cannot be distinguished, but that all field ids and breeding records where the researcher competently identified the species ACCORDING TO ACCEPTED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TIME and reported the information, all that information is now uncertain with the realisation that what was earlier athamas is actually two species, same for hordonia, etc. Taxonomy progressed through the study of external physical features until the beginning of the 20th century, when the study of genitalia served to distinguish many species indistinguishable superficially. At present, mtDNA is gaining increasing acceptance for distinguishing taxa, so there is no telling which way the documentation of taxa is going to proceed. In such an event, it is always better to keep the specimens one has bred, or to have the specimens examined to report a local checklist, so that in the event of taxonomic changes, matters can be reliably updated...one does not mean that one should take every speimen that one sees, but individuals that contribute to scientific knowledge should certainly be retained in a well maintained collection. I refer, for example, to Dr. Kunte's recent record of a new palmfly for India, published in Journal of Threatened Taxa: he actually held the specimen in his hand, photographed it and released it. We do not have an example of that species in any Indian collection. I feel that the specimen should have been taken and deposited in a National Collection, eg., the National Forest Insect Collection in Dehra Dun. I realise that Dr. Kunte was simply keeping within the rules by not taking a specimen within a protected area. However, I feel there is need for a change in rules concerning protected areas, so that in the case of invertebrates, which are largely unworked in India, accredited research workers like Dr. Kunte should have the leeway or permission to take specimens of scientifically important taxa which they might come across by chance in the course of their study and deposit it with the officer in charge of the protected area, who should in turn send it along to the Forest ResearchInstitue in Dehra Dun to be included in the National Collection. Everyone would be well served that way... On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:28:12 +0530 wrote > I totally agree. This is something that should be completely left to the experts. When I say experts, I mean field entomologists who have permissions for collection and those who know how to preserve those specimens and who indeed have expertise in identifying them at the level of Genitalia or say Genome. In South India, where I visited many entomological departments, the collections are not only incomplete, but very badly maintained and some of the specimens are wrongly identified and many of them were not even identified !!! Butterfly collection requires lot more dedication and passion and I certainly don't think the general butterfly enthusiasts will be interested in this. Of course, there will be many who will blatantly reject the idea of collection without even realising the importance of it. Although I totally agree that we should work towards creating a complete well-maintained collection, I still do not agree that collection is the only authentic way for identification. If you carefully observe any species in the field for decent amount of time, you will see a pattern which will differentiate it from other closer species, sub-species and races. And also there will be some unique feature in their body as well. I mean assuming that a particular sub-species or race separated out during evolution, it would have got exposed to relatively different set of environment and this would reflect both in their behavior and as some unique feature in their body. We should be patient enough to recognize these subtle differences. But, yes this would take lot more time to confirm/associate any unique behavior or feature with a species, but it is not impossible. So, a complete collection backed by lot of field studies would be key in conserving those species. Coming to the set of species that you mentioned, I am sure Dr. Kunte can distinguish them with very high accuracy from their photos. He has done it for Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka. I myself has sent couple of photos sometime back to this group, on how we can easily distinguish Polyura athamas and P. agraria. I also sometime back sent the keys for distinguishing Euploea core and sylvester, again just using pattern of white spots on them. Although, I have to catch and release hundreds of them to confirm this distinguising feature, but it does exist. Ideal situation would be to set up a small team of experts who visit all the national parks and properly collect and ID and make it available to general public. Once we have this in place, general butterfly enthusiasts can visit these places and do lot of field studies to identify a unique behavior and feature for each species. Once we have all this properly archived, we can do away with collection. I heard IISc is already doing DNA sequencing for butterflies. I wrote to one of the students but did not get any reply. In any case, the kind of website that I was talking about will still help at large for less confusing species and definitely for my migratory ones!!! Kishen On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Peter Smetacek wrote: Kishen, taxonomy tends to change down the line: eg., it is nearly impossible to separate information gathered for Pantoporia hordonia and P. sandaka; Polyura athamas and P. agraria, Psilogramma menephron and P. increta, etc, etc. It is always better to have specimens to examine. That way, no matter which way taxonomy progresses, the data gathered is never lost. None of our national collections of Lepidoptera is complete, or, indeed, near complete. Lots of work needs to be done and to ensure scientific reliability, if it is specimen based, it will be irrefutable. Photos are useful up to a point, but not in a country where the Lepidoptera are as imperfectly known as ours... On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:40:27 +0530 wrote > I think this project is restricted to Europe and UK. It would be good if we can create an online database, where anyone can log in and report their sightings. ( Of course these sightings should be backed up by photos and also some expert to look into the data) Probably once there is an establishment of genuinity of sightings by a particular person, then the expert can relax submitting the photos for all the species ( I mean except for the difficult to ID or rare ones). On the long run it will help in better understading the distribution and diversity of our regions. I talked to couple of people but it did not work out. Probably I will have this once I have my own website, at least for migratory ones to start with. Kishen On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:52 AM, Priyadarsanan Dharma Rajan wrote: From: Entomology Discussion List [mailto:ENTOMO- l...@listserv. uoguelph. ca] On Behalf Of Neil Jones Sent: 16 July 2010 22:21 To: entom...@listserv. uoguelph. ca Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? From: Louise Keeling Sent: 09 July 2010 16:34 To: All Staff Subject: David Attenborough will be doing it - will you? Butterflies are both beautiful and vital to the health of our environment. Their survival is crucial yet they are in serious decline. Be part of the big butterfly count from the 24th July to the 1st of August this year and help us gather information to save them. Just find a place where you might see butterflies, such as a garden or park, and count the different butterflies you see in just 15 minutes. You can make counts in several places during the week. Submit your sightings at www.bigbutterflycou nt.org and you'll receive 10 per cent off plants when you shop online at M&S. * Butterflies are disappearing fast and we can't help them without your support. See the website for details. Please forward this email to your friends of relatives - the more people who join in, the more accurate a picture we can build of our changing butterflies. Thank you *Terms and conditions apply. See www.marksandspencer .com/offers for details. Lou Keeling Senior Publicity Officer lkeel...@butterfly- conservation. org Join the big butterfly count and help us take the pulse of nature 24 July - 1 August at www.bigbutterflycou nt.org Butterfly Conservation Manor Yard East Lulworth Wareham Dorset BH20 5QP Tel Direct: 01929 406005. Tel Reception: 01929 400209 Fax: 01929 400210 Company limited by guarantee, registered in England (2206468). Charity registered in England Wales (254937) and in Scotland (SCO39268) ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******* Butterfly Conservation is dedicated to saving butterflies, moths and the environment. If you would like further information please view our website at > Over 40 years of saving butterflies, moths and their habitats. ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******* The views and comments expressed in this email do not necessarily express the views of Butterfly Conservation. If you do not wish to receive any further information about the conservation, campaigning and fundraising work of the Society please reply to this email with the word 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ****** -- Krushnamegh Kunte, Ph.D. Post-doctoral Research Fellow (Kronforst Lab) FAS Center for Systems Biology Harvard University 52 Oxford St Northwest Lab Room 458.40-3 Cambridge, MA 02138, USA. Ph: (617) 496-0078 Cell: (512) 577-1370 Fax: (617) 495-2196 Email: [email protected]. edu Other emails: krushnamegh@ gmail.com, krushnamegh@ ifoundbutterflie s.org Personal website: http://www.people. fas.harvard. edu/~kunte/ index.htm Indian Foundation for Butterflies: http://ifoundbutter flies.org/ Google profile: http://www.google. com/profiles/ krushnamegh -- Enjoy
