It is open and shut. Saying it came from a well established name for wandering people versus having no alternative, the only scientific thing to do us to accept the plausible explanation. On Oct 27, 2015 7:56 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm no philologist, but I don't think it's as open and shut as suggested. > While there is no proof the term derived from something other than in > reference to the people, there is equally no proof to the affirmative that > it is named after those people. Although it is indeed probable that it was > named after the Roma people, mere coexistence (or pre-existence) of the > term doesn't confirm it's the source. > > To keep things in perspective: On more than one occasion, I've heard > contra dance callers explained that an "allemande" comes from the French "à > la main" or "by the hand." However, that is apocryphal and the true origin > is from a reference to a German dance (in French, "Allemande"). Just > because something sounds logically consistent doesn't mean that's the true > origin. I think the fact that the term is shortened to "gip" in some > contexts and spelled as "jeepsies" in another leaves enough reasonable > doubt that it could come from other derivations. That said, it may need to > be retired regardless. > > On Oct 27, 2015, at 13:50, Ron Blechner <[email protected]> wrote: > > This should be open and shut. > > http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gypsy > > The term, whether with a y or i vowel (remember, this is before Webster > invented the dictionary with standard spellings) is ~400 years old. > > The burden of proof is thus on those who would say there's some other root > of the word where the Morris dancers got it. > On Oct 27, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I've been reading all the historical origins discussion. It's seems to >> me we are far from concluding that the term 'gypsy' is associated with >> Romani people. We have that Cecil Sharp probably heard Morris Dancers >> using whole and half gip, and appropriated the movement and term for >> broader use in country dance, apparently without investigating origin. And >> we have a possible association between an Elizabethan? theater production >> called the Spanish Gypsy, with a dance of similar name with movement that >> may or may not be what we now call gypsy, but was not so named in said >> dance. We are all assuming that at some point, someone was referring to >> the Roma, to their hands free dance, to their gaze, or something, but we >> don't know. >> That said, the trouble comes on situations like that Amy Wimmer >> encountered. People from outside come in, and THEY make the assumption and >> association. And some feel it is not politically correct, and take >> offense. We haven't heard of a case of Romani people taking offense, >> presumably because we haven't had any attend a contra? That doesn't make >> using the term ok, it just means we have no usable specific data. Sargon's >> question therefore remains unanswered. What are the criteria for removing >> a term from our vocabulary? What level of provable offense constitutes >> reason for removal? Even if the answer is none, it's worth asking >> ourselves. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Since "gypsy" as a contra/ECD term almost certainly refers to Romani, it >> differs from say, geological terms or whatnot. The swastika is a sad thing, >> because the Nazis basically ruined it, even though they use a reverse >> direction version. >> >> That said, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the change to the "gypsy" >> move, just stating that there are some clear differences. >> On Oct 27, 2015 11:20 AM, "Sargon de Jesus via Callers" < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> This has been a fascinating and edifying conversation regarding how and >>> when to use the term. At the risk of getting too deep in the philosophical >>> questions regarding use of the word "gypsy," I have a sincere and seriously >>> non-loaded question about what conditions must be met in order to justify >>> removing it from our calling vocabulary. Of course I acknowledge that when >>> use of a pointed term meant to represent a certain group of people is >>> deemed by that group of people to be offensive, then care should be taken >>> to eliminate use of such a word (the Washington, D.C. football team comes >>> to mind). There is no alternate etymology to that term other than the >>> reference to Native Americans (well, unless their helmets had always >>> featured red-skinned potatoes, of course). But now, in playing devil's >>> advocate I ask: doesn't context and origin matter for "gypsy"? Isn't the >>> etymology of the term's use in contra dancing relevant to whether it can >>> rightfully be cast aside for being an offensive term? >>> >>> To those who say it doesn't, then how do we reconcile that with >>> offensive terms or displays that have similar outputs that arose completely >>> independently? For example: >>> - The four-pointed star common in Jainism is frequently mistaken for a >>> swastika. >>> - The garb of the "Nazarenos" in Spain look identical to the KKK. >>> - Geologists liberally use the term "dike/dyke" for a relatively common >>> rock formation. >>> - Cracks or fissures in/on surfaces are commonly called "chinks." >>> - The term "fob" is widely used for certain types of rings on key chains. >>> >>> If we agree that all of these displays and uses are legitimate and >>> appropriate for continued use, then doesn't the history of "gypsy" in >>> contra dancing matter? Or does the surficial cause of offense warrant >>> elimination? Not trying to weasel out of the situation here, but rather >>> genuinely trying to refine the precise reasoning behind decisions in contra >>> vocabulary. Curious about any/all perspectives on this -- thanks! >>> Sargon >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Apologies for putting words in your mouth. I misunderstood what you >>>> were saying. >>>> >>>> -- Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/26/2015 3:51 PM, Colin Hume via Callers wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 12:48:00 -0700, Alan Winston via Callers wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I didn't know morris dancers used "gypsy" rather than "gyp", as you >>>>>> say on the web page. >>>>>> >>>>> Alan - >>>>> >>>>> I don't believe I say that. I say that Sharp's handwritten notes use >>>>> the word "gipsies", and I give links to prove it. I agree that morris >>>>> dancers use "gyp". >>>>> >>>>> Colin Hume >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >>
