Stephen, I assure you that at Hotlanta, DC Lambda, and the conventions I've attended, people are not in traditional garb, but in shorts and T-shirts, just like in contra. And you bet we sweat. It has not impacted the use of the hold. Andrea
Sent from my iPhone > On May 21, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Stephen via Callers > <[email protected]> wrote: > > The forearm turn works well in MWSD because men wear long-sleeved shirts. > Don’t know about you, but with short sleeved Ts typically worn by men in > contra dancing, I’d hate to get a load of sweat on my arm , especially up and > down the line with the all-too-frequent gents (or larks) allemand left once > and a half. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 21, 2019, at 4:07 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> Send Callers mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Richard Fischer) >> 2. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella) >> 3. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Don Veino) >> 4. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella) >> 5. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Erik Hoffman) >> 6. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton) >> 7. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) >> 8. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Folk Dance) >> 9. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) >> 10. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton) >> 11. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:58:41 -0400 >> From: Richard Fischer <[email protected]> >> To: Andrea Nettleton <[email protected]> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen >> it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows >> it? >> >> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of >> Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their hands >> on one another's wrists." >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Richard Fischer >> Princeton, NJ >> >>> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor >>> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken >>> wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande >>> for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I >>> was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and >>> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the >>> chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with >>> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and >>> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I >>> began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have >>> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know >>> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put >>> it out there. >>> >>> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and >>> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base >>> of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb >>> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so >>> leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to >>> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list >>> has similar teaches. >>> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. I >>> suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold >>> instead. >>> My 2c, >>> Andrea N >>> Arlington VA >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and >>>> the like. >>>> >>>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion >>>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly >>>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of >>>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, >>>> thus it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag >>>> called, ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go?? >>>> >>>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us >>>> should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary? >>>> >>>> But the most important thing I discussed is: >>>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight >>>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved >>>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved >>>> fingers and a straight wrist. >>>> >>>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and >>>> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist >>>> uncomfortable. Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that >>>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite >>>> uncomfortable. >>>> >>>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, >>>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand >>>> connections. >>>> >>>> ~Erik Hoffman, >>>> Oakland, CA >>>> >>>> From: Callers <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of John Sweeney >>>> via Callers >>>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM >>>> To: 'Caller's discussion list' <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance >>>> >>>> Hi Rich, >>>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight >>>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up >>>> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers. >>>> >>>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I >>>> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to >>>> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-) >>>> >>>> Happy dancing, >>>> John >>>> >>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 >>>> >>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html >>>> <http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html> for Live Music Ceilidhs >>>> >>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing >>>> in Kent >>>> http://www.modernjive.com <http://www.modernjive.com/> for Modern Jive DVDs >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>>> List Address: [email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/b4cce673/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 19:22:08 -0400 >> From: Rich Sbardella <[email protected]> >> To: Richard Fischer <[email protected]> >> Cc: Andrea Nettleton <[email protected]>, "Caller's >> discussion list" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: >> <CAE4Buj+QHsNHa=0dbsofndwwq2mtvz5a5xt7cy59k5r22zo...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Here is a link with a square dance using the forearm allemande at 30 >> seconds in. As a dancer and caller in both worlds, I prefer the contra >> allemande over the forearm allemande. It is easier ti give weight and I >> would suspect it is faster going 1-1/2. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Y-NdyZtKM >> >> >> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 6:58 PM Richard Fischer via Callers < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen >>> it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows >>> it? >>> >>> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of >>> Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their >>> hands on one another's wrists." >>> >>> With best wishes, >>> >>> Richard Fischer >>> Princeton, NJ >>> >>> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor >>> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken >>> wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande >>> for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I >>> was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and >>> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the >>> chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with >>> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and >>> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I >>> began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have >>> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know >>> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put >>> it out there. >>> >>> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and >>> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base >>> of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb >>> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so >>> leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to >>> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list >>> has similar teaches. >>> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. >>> I suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm >>> hold instead. >>> My 2c, >>> Andrea N >>> Arlington VA >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and >>> the like. >>> >>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion >>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly >>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of >>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus >>> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, >>> ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go?? >>> >>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us >>> should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary? >>> >>> But the most important thing I discussed is: >>> >>> - Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight >>> - Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved >>> - Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with >>> curved fingers and a straight wrist. >>> >>> >>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and >>> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable. >>> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that >>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite >>> uncomfortable. >>> >>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, >>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand >>> connections. >>> >>> ~Erik Hoffman, >>> Oakland, CA >>> >>> *From:* Callers <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *John >>> Sweeney via Callers >>> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM >>> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' <[email protected]> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance >>> >>> Hi Rich, >>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight >>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up >>> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers. >>> >>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, >>> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to >>> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-) >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >>> 940 574 >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music >>> Ceilidhs >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/a1138121/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:19:15 -0400 >> From: Don Veino <[email protected]> >> To: "Caller's discussion list" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: >> <CAAJTtiKj-hoo6kwzQb0k9=nakchvzrn5__butvtigypj+sr...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/0ece7f6a/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:33:51 -0400 >> From: Rich Sbardella <[email protected]> >> To: Don Veino <[email protected]> >> Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: >> <cae4bujkbq_uqtt-kt2qr6wg9ezfiohaff30tpejvujkchbt...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Don, >> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. >> No skin too skin. >> Rich >> >> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/075bbf2f/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 05:50:44 +0000 >> From: Erik Hoffman <[email protected]> >> To: Rich Sbardella <[email protected]>, Don Veino >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: >> >> <byapr11mb3304bdaa2c8fe73e4db39ebed0...@byapr11mb3304.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing! >> >> >> >> >> From: Callers <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Rich >> Sbardella via Callers >> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM >> To: Don Veino <[email protected]> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> >> Don, >> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. >> No skin too skin. >> Rich >> >> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/15a8af89/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 04:28:55 -0400 >> From: Andrea Nettleton <[email protected]> >> To: Erik Hoffman <[email protected]> >> Cc: Rich Sbardella <[email protected]>, Don Veino >> <[email protected]>, Caller's discussion list >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi all, >> I think that particular video is a poor example of what forearm turns can >> be. I can?t deny the potential for sweat, but, confession, my hands sweat >> like crazy anyway, and I seem to collect plenty of other people?s sweat in >> swings and courtesy turns, as it is. >> I disagree about weight. The difference is that the connection puts less >> stress on joints and therefore feels lighter, but is, in fact, tighter. At >> contra dances, doing a traditional allemande, where according to Rich we >> should find it easy to give weight, instead there?s a panoply of styles of >> mangling hands wrists and shoulders, flexing or flopping elbows, which >> result in all too few actually satisfying and well weighted allemandes, >> regardless of role danced. If it were easy for that allemande to be well >> executed and well weighted, wouldn?t it more generally be so? Wouldn?t >> there be fewer defensive variants? >> The forearm turn is almost impossible to mess up, with fewer joints >> involved, and even when less weight is applied, is firm and close enough to >> result in timely movement. Whatever else can be said about it, it does not >> permit wide spacing between bodies, and people do automatically bend their >> elbows to something like the appropriate angle. There only being one angle >> to adjust makes it easier to fine tune, in my opinion. >> Richard Fisher requested, I think, a description. To be as accurate as >> possible I asked my partner, who, like me, has been a long time contra and >> English dancer, as well as a MWSD dancer. (I have always danced at gay >> clubs, which, I understand may be zestier than average?, and he is a MIT >> Tech squares alum, which, being a college club, may also dance with higher >> energy than the club in the video) to simply give me a MWSD forearm as if we >> were about to, for example, swing thru. He gave me what I expected, and >> what I consider good form: full hand and fingers solidly on the meaty inside >> of my forearm, which let me do the same, forming a flat wristed, full hand >> through forearm connection for both of us. Instead of a W, you get more >> like a \__/ look. The outsides of the fingers are to a wall, the insides >> pushing at the forearm, like we pressure the hand in a traditional hold. It >> feels more like the whole arm is involved to me, less muscle action needed, >> only enough to maintain the ar >> m position. We varied in how we held our digits, I had mine more open, he >> kept his flat, either way it functions like a mitt. Both of us used our >> palms to make the primary connection, fingers lighter. As in any allemande, >> the elbow and shoulder firm up to complete the connection. It can be very >> zippy indeed! >> I?m still searching for a clear example in video form. I?ll let you all >> know if I find one from sources I have access to. >> >> FWIW, I am exhausted from the last few years of the community arguing about >> words and terms. So I?m leery of us picking yet another thing to get >> exercised over. If anyone truly gets near perfect results from their teach >> of a trad allemande, I will adopt their words on the spot. Otherwise I?ll >> continue to see the leas than desirable quality of allemandes experienced as >> a pitfall of the hold itself combined with the usual humans being human, >> each with individual understandings, abilities, etc leading to highly >> variable execution, rather than a consequence of sub par teaching. >> Peace everyone. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 21, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Callers <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Rich >>> Sbardella via Callers >>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM >>> To: Don Veino <[email protected]> >>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >>> >>> Don, >>> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. >>> No skin too skin. >>> Rich >>> >>> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/3dfde8da/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:19:19 +0100 >> From: "John Sweeney" <[email protected]> >> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >> discussion on this important topic. >> >> >> >> There are two very different forearm holds. >> >> >> >> *** In front of the elbow ***: >> >> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >> >> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom >> he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the >> turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving >> equally around the other.? >> >> >> >> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >> >> >> >> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >> >> >> >> The connection is not as good as it could be. >> >> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >> arm. >> >> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >> >> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >> >> >> >> The one I do like is: >> >> >> >> *** Behind the elbow ***: >> >> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >> >> >> >> This is a great connection. >> >> There is no need to grip. >> >> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >> >> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >> >> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >> >> It can be achieved instantaneously. >> >> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >> >> >> >> You can see it being used in this video: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >> >> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >> right (two ladies - one in grey). >> >> >> >> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >> >> >> >> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >> >> >> >> Try them and see what you think. >> >> >> >> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >> >> >> >> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in >> Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I >> still love it.) >> >> >> >> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >> >> >> >> Happy dancing, >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/b127557f/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:11:53 +0100 >> From: Folk Dance <[email protected]> >> To: John Sweeney <[email protected]> >> Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: >> <caapffdbzl5ubtdskbpvuh6mokyau16mprqof0w-crkw4jh4...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the >> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that >> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! >> >> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of >> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some >> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would >> be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly >> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. >> >> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a >> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? >> >> Bob >> >> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >>> discussion on this important topic. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two very different forearm holds. >>> >>> >>> >>> *** In front of the elbow ***: >>> >>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >>> >>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >>> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with >>> whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of >>> the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is >>> moving equally around the other.? >>> >>> >>> >>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >>> >>> >>> >>> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >>> >>> >>> >>> The connection is not as good as it could be. >>> >>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >>> arm. >>> >>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >>> >>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >>> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >>> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >>> >>> >>> >>> The one I do like is: >>> >>> >>> >>> *** Behind the elbow ***: >>> >>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >>> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >>> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >>> >>> >>> >>> This is a great connection. >>> >>> There is no need to grip. >>> >>> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >>> >>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >>> >>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >>> >>> It can be achieved instantaneously. >>> >>> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >>> >>> >>> >>> You can see it being used in this video: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >>> >>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >>> right (two ladies - one in grey). >>> >>> >>> >>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >>> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >>> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >>> >>> >>> >>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >>> >>> >>> >>> Try them and see what you think. >>> >>> >>> >>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >>> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >>> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >>> >>> >>> >>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years >>> in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now >>> and I still love it.) >>> >>> >>> >>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >>> >>> >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >>> 940 574 >>> >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music >>> Ceilidhs >>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> >>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/3c610c8c/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:46:55 +0100 >> From: "John Sweeney" <[email protected]> >> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves! >> >> >> >> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down >> Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All hands >> are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to >> assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather >> than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to >> the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.? (Sadly >> very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood >> this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & >> Left instead of Swing Thru!) >> >> >> >> I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold >> in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability >> to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want >> to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find >> a way to get people to do it better? >> >> >> >> Happy dancing, >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Folk Dance <[email protected]> >> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12 >> To: John Sweeney <[email protected]> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> >> >> >> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the >> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that >> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! >> >> >> >> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of >> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some >> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would >> be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly >> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. >> >> >> >> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a >> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? >> >> >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> wrote: >> >> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >> discussion on this important topic. >> >> >> >> There are two very different forearm holds. >> >> >> >> *** In front of the elbow ***: >> >> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >> >> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom >> he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the >> turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving >> equally around the other.? >> >> >> >> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >> >> >> >> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >> >> >> >> The connection is not as good as it could be. >> >> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >> arm. >> >> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >> >> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >> >> >> >> The one I do like is: >> >> >> >> *** Behind the elbow ***: >> >> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >> >> >> >> This is a great connection. >> >> There is no need to grip. >> >> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >> >> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >> >> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >> >> It can be achieved instantaneously. >> >> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >> >> >> >> You can see it being used in this video: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >> >> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >> right (two ladies - one in grey). >> >> >> >> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >> >> >> >> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >> >> >> >> Try them and see what you think. >> >> >> >> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >> >> >> >> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in >> Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I >> still love it.) >> >> >> >> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >> >> >> >> Happy dancing, >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 >> >> >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: [email protected] >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/4ee4785d/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:50:34 -0400 >> From: Andrea Nettleton <[email protected]> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I think thumb pressure, even finger ?pressure? has to be avoided and it?s >> avoidance taught thoroughly no matter the hold. I once had nerve pain for >> weeks after a cupped elbow hold in which that nerve going into the front >> inside of the elbow was deeply squashed by a zealously gripping digit, I >> think thumb. The non universality and also the too close to my bust fingers >> (both asthe hand enters and if any jostling occurs) make me dislike that >> cupped elbow hold very much, totally besides that nerve pinch I had. The >> forearm is taught explicitly as not a grip and I think it works fine for >> every turn I?ve attempted. Rory o mores and box circulates, not being >> turns, would be taught using a W arm, fingertip connection or however we >> want to cast that. >> I too want to hear how the flat palm to palm could even work and how it is >> motivated. >> Also, while we have extolled the virtues of forearm and elbow cup, or even >> the old hold, I haven?t heard anyone deny how often it fails, with wrists >> twisted and shoulders and elbows straining, fingers squished, tender parts >> of hands hurt, and/or weight utterly missing or arm wrestle level. Above >> all I?m waiting for someone to say they have a way to teach it that truly >> prevents these many evils. I can?t get behind it whole heartedly, however >> theoretically universal, until we have that. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, John Sweeney via Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves! >>> >>> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down >>> Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All >>> hands are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight >>> pressure to assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be >>> utilized rather than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly >>> from one turn to the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the >>> line.? (Sadly very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to >>> have understood this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level >>> and Grand Right & Left instead of Swing Thru!) >>> >>> I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold >>> in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability >>> to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you >>> want to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could >>> find a way to get people to do it better? >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >>> 940 574 >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >>> >>> >>> From: Folk Dance <[email protected]> >>> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12 >>> To: John Sweeney <[email protected]> >>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >>> >>> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the >>> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that >>> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! >>> >>> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of >>> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some >>> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would >>> be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly >>> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. >>> >>> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a >>> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >>> discussion on this important topic. >>> >>> There are two very different forearm holds. >>> >>> *** In front of the elbow ***: >>> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >>> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >>> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with >>> whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of >>> the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is >>> moving equally around the other.? >>> >>> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >>> >>> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >>> >>> The connection is not as good as it could be. >>> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >>> arm. >>> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >>> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >>> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >>> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >>> >>> The one I do like is: >>> >>> *** Behind the elbow ***: >>> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >>> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >>> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >>> >>> This is a great connection. >>> There is no need to grip. >>> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >>> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >>> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >>> It can be achieved instantaneously. >>> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >>> >>> You can see it being used in this video: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >>> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >>> right (two ladies - one in grey). >>> >>> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >>> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >>> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >>> >>> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >>> >>> Try them and see what you think. >>> >>> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >>> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >>> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >>> >>> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in >>> Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I >>> still love it.) >>> >>> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >>> 940 574 >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/a54e757c/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 18:31:22 +0100 >> From: "John Sweeney" <[email protected]> >> To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Andrea, >> >> Absolutely. All moves should be taught explicitly as not a grip. >> >> >> >> Amazing! There is always something new to learn. I have been >> dancing the cupped elbow hold for over 50 years, and taught it to literally >> thousands of dancers. I have never heard about there being a challenge >> regarding bust contact. I checked with my wife and she has never >> encountered it either. >> >> >> >> Just to clarify: I was not suggesting in any way that either >> forearm hold should be used in modern American contra dancing. I was just >> clarifying the various version of the move in response to someone?s query >> about what the hold is. >> >> >> >> The cupped elbow hold definitely has its place in various parts >> of the wonderful spectrum of traditional/folk/country/contra dancing. >> >> >> >> I would only ever suggest it as an option in contra dancing if >> someone had an injury and didn?t want to use the standard contra Allemande >> hold. It could also be offered in self-defence, instead of the fist-to-fist >> ?hold?, when encountering someone in the line that you know is likely to >> hurt you. >> >> >> >> The standard contra Allemande hold is undoubtedly here to stay. >> It is by far the best option for moves like Rory O?More and Swing Thru, and >> it is established across the world as the way to do a modern American contra >> dance Allemande. >> >> >> >> So, all we can try to do is improve people?s technique. >> >> >> >> Quite often a new caller will learn how to call a dance, get up >> in front of an experienced crowd, walk through the dance calling the moves, >> then call the dance, calling all the right words at the right time, and >> relying on the experienced dancers to help the beginners through the dance. >> The dance works. The caller will then consider themself to be a contra dance >> caller, without ever having actually taught anything at all. >> >> >> >> In the UK the EFDSS changed the name of the person holding the >> microphone from ?teacher? to ?caller? some time in the 1950s. >> >> >> >> I feel that very few modern callers realise that teaching is >> part of the job. >> >> >> >> We callers are the only ones who can improve the dancers? >> technique. I just wish that all callers realised this and took >> responsibility for it. It only takes a few seconds during each walk-through >> to drop a pearl of wisdom into the mix. It doesn?t take long to say one of >> these: >> >> >> >> Allemande: It?s not arm-wrestling - if your hand moves towards you, you lose! >> >> >> >> Allemande: Make a good connection then relax - your muscles are for fighting >> centrifugal force, not your partner. >> >> >> >> Allemande 1.5: Keep your hands mid-way between you with nice W-shaped arms >> and take bigger steps. >> >> >> >> Circle Left 3/4; Pass Through: It?s six steps for the circle and two to pass >> through - don?t be late for your new neighbour. >> >> >> >> Swing: Plan the end of the move so your are both facing the right way on >> time. >> >> >> Wrist-Lock Stars: Make sure your thumb is on top with your fingers so that >> you can?t grip. >> >> >> >> Etc. >> >> >> >> I have often though of putting a poster at the door saying, >> ?Leave your thumbs at the door!? >> >> >> >> Maybe we could all share our favourite teaching phrases and make >> a database of them to encourage all callers to do some teaching. >> >> >> >> Happy dancing, >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England [email protected] 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/96e98d10/attachment-0001.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Callers Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 >> ************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: [email protected] > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ _______________________________________________ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: [email protected] Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/
