The forearm turn works well in MWSD because men wear long-sleeved shirts. Don’t know about you, but with short sleeved Ts typically worn by men in contra dancing, I’d hate to get a load of sweat on my arm , especially up and down the line with the all-too-frequent gents (or larks) allemand left once and a half.
Sent from my iPhone > On May 21, 2019, at 4:07 PM, callers-requ...@lists.sharedweight.net wrote: > > Send Callers mailing list submissions to > callers@lists.sharedweight.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > callers-requ...@lists.sharedweight.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > callers-ow...@lists.sharedweight.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Callers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Richard Fischer) > 2. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella) > 3. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Don Veino) > 4. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella) > 5. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Erik Hoffman) > 6. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton) > 7. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) > 8. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Folk Dance) > 9. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) > 10. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton) > 11. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:58:41 -0400 > From: Richard Fischer <richardallenfisc...@verizon.net> > To: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-g...@bellsouth.net> > Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <52479a7c-5587-493a-8b69-f85f8519b...@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen it > and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows it? > > Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of > Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their hands > on one another's wrists." > > With best wishes, > > Richard Fischer > Princeton, NJ > >> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor >> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken >> wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande >> for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was >> like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and wrists, >> and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing >> almost impossible. I started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a >> dancer, because those turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a >> quick strong connection. I was so pleased I began using them elsewhere. >> People generally go along with it. I have been wishing Contra could just >> switch to this for all allemandes. I know it would be an uphill struggle to >> get everyone on board. But I had to put it out there. >> >> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and >> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base >> of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb itself >> is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave >> it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 >> person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list has >> similar teaches. >> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. I >> suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold >> instead. >> My 2c, >> Andrea N >> Arlington VA >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and >>> the like. >>> >>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion >>> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly >>> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of >>> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus >>> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, >>> ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go?? >>> >>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us >>> should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary? >>> >>> But the most important thing I discussed is: >>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight >>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved >>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved >>> fingers and a straight wrist. >>> >>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and >>> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable. >>> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that >>> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite >>> uncomfortable. >>> >>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, >>> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand >>> connections. >>> >>> ~Erik Hoffman, >>> Oakland, CA >>> >>> From: Callers <callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> <mailto:callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net>> On Behalf Of John Sweeney >>> via Callers >>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM >>> To: 'Caller's discussion list' <call...@sharedweight.net >>> <mailto:call...@sharedweight.net>> >>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance >>> >>> Hi Rich, >>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight >>> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up >>> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers. >>> >>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I >>> really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do >>> better hand/arm turns and swings :-) >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com >>> <mailto:j...@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 >>> >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html >>> <http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html> for Live Music Ceilidhs >>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing >>> in Kent >>> http://www.modernjive.com <http://www.modernjive.com/> for Modern Jive DVDs >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List Name: Callers mailing list >>> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >>> <https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/b4cce673/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 19:22:08 -0400 > From: Rich Sbardella <richsbarde...@gmail.com> > To: Richard Fischer <richardallenfisc...@verizon.net> > Cc: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-g...@bellsouth.net>, "Caller's > discussion list" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: > <CAE4Buj+QHsNHa=0dbsofndwwq2mtvz5a5xt7cy59k5r22zo...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Here is a link with a square dance using the forearm allemande at 30 > seconds in. As a dancer and caller in both worlds, I prefer the contra > allemande over the forearm allemande. It is easier ti give weight and I > would suspect it is faster going 1-1/2. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Y-NdyZtKM > > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 6:58 PM Richard Fischer via Callers < > callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen >> it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows >> it? >> >> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of >> Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their >> hands on one another's wrists." >> >> With best wishes, >> >> Richard Fischer >> Princeton, NJ >> >> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < >> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor >> allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken >> wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande >> for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I >> was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and >> wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the >> chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with >> revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and >> necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I >> began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have >> been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know >> it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put >> it out there. >> >> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and >> emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base >> of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb >> itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so >> leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to >> make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list >> has similar teaches. >> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. >> I suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm >> hold instead. >> My 2c, >> Andrea N >> Arlington VA >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers < >> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and >> the like. >> >> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion >> with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly >> interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of >> the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus >> it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, >> ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go?? >> >> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us >> should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary? >> >> But the most important thing I discussed is: >> >> - Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight >> - Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved >> - Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with >> curved fingers and a straight wrist. >> >> >> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and >> flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable. >> Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that >> almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite >> uncomfortable. >> >> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, >> and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand >> connections. >> >> ~Erik Hoffman, >> Oakland, CA >> >> *From:* Callers <callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net> *On Behalf Of *John >> Sweeney via Callers >> *Sent:* Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM >> *To:* 'Caller's discussion list' <call...@sharedweight.net> >> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Name that Dance >> >> Hi Rich, >> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight >> variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up >> a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers. >> >> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, >> I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to >> do better hand/arm turns and swings :-) >> >> Happy dancing, >> John >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music >> Ceilidhs >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/a1138121/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:19:15 -0400 > From: Don Veino <sharedweight_...@veino.com> > To: "Caller's discussion list" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: > <CAAJTtiKj-hoo6kwzQb0k9=nakchvzrn5__butvtigypj+sr...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/0ece7f6a/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 20:33:51 -0400 > From: Rich Sbardella <richsbarde...@gmail.com> > To: Don Veino <sharedweight_...@veino.com> > Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: > <cae4bujkbq_uqtt-kt2qr6wg9ezfiohaff30tpejvujkchbt...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Don, > That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. > No skin too skin. > Rich > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers < > callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190520/075bbf2f/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 05:50:44 +0000 > From: Erik Hoffman <e...@erikhoffman.com> > To: Rich Sbardella <richsbarde...@gmail.com>, Don Veino > <sharedweight_...@veino.com> > Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: > > <byapr11mb3304bdaa2c8fe73e4db39ebed0...@byapr11mb3304.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing! > > > > > From: Callers <callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich > Sbardella via Callers > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM > To: Don Veino <sharedweight_...@veino.com> > Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > > Don, > That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. > No skin too skin. > Rich > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers > <callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! > _______________________________________________ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/15a8af89/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 04:28:55 -0400 > From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-g...@bellsouth.net> > To: Erik Hoffman <e...@erikhoffman.com> > Cc: Rich Sbardella <richsbarde...@gmail.com>, Don Veino > <sharedweight_...@veino.com>, Caller's discussion list > <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <40a1cafe-3df7-4d44-b7af-2a3beb67d...@bellsouth.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi all, > I think that particular video is a poor example of what forearm turns can be. > I can?t deny the potential for sweat, but, confession, my hands sweat like > crazy anyway, and I seem to collect plenty of other people?s sweat in swings > and courtesy turns, as it is. > I disagree about weight. The difference is that the connection puts less > stress on joints and therefore feels lighter, but is, in fact, tighter. At > contra dances, doing a traditional allemande, where according to Rich we > should find it easy to give weight, instead there?s a panoply of styles of > mangling hands wrists and shoulders, flexing or flopping elbows, which result > in all too few actually satisfying and well weighted allemandes, regardless > of role danced. If it were easy for that allemande to be well executed and > well weighted, wouldn?t it more generally be so? Wouldn?t there be fewer > defensive variants? > The forearm turn is almost impossible to mess up, with fewer joints involved, > and even when less weight is applied, is firm and close enough to result in > timely movement. Whatever else can be said about it, it does not permit wide > spacing between bodies, and people do automatically bend their elbows to > something like the appropriate angle. There only being one angle to adjust > makes it easier to fine tune, in my opinion. > Richard Fisher requested, I think, a description. To be as accurate as > possible I asked my partner, who, like me, has been a long time contra and > English dancer, as well as a MWSD dancer. (I have always danced at gay > clubs, which, I understand may be zestier than average?, and he is a MIT > Tech squares alum, which, being a college club, may also dance with higher > energy than the club in the video) to simply give me a MWSD forearm as if we > were about to, for example, swing thru. He gave me what I expected, and what > I consider good form: full hand and fingers solidly on the meaty inside of my > forearm, which let me do the same, forming a flat wristed, full hand through > forearm connection for both of us. Instead of a W, you get more like a \__/ > look. The outsides of the fingers are to a wall, the insides pushing at the > forearm, like we pressure the hand in a traditional hold. It feels more like > the whole arm is involved to me, less muscle action needed, only enough to > maintain the ar > m position. We varied in how we held our digits, I had mine more open, he > kept his flat, either way it functions like a mitt. Both of us used our > palms to make the primary connection, fingers lighter. As in any allemande, > the elbow and shoulder firm up to complete the connection. It can be very > zippy indeed! > I?m still searching for a clear example in video form. I?ll let you all know > if I find one from sources I have access to. > > FWIW, I am exhausted from the last few years of the community arguing about > words and terms. So I?m leery of us picking yet another thing to get > exercised over. If anyone truly gets near perfect results from their teach > of a trad allemande, I will adopt their words on the spot. Otherwise I?ll > continue to see the leas than desirable quality of allemandes experienced as > a pitfall of the hold itself combined with the usual humans being human, each > with individual understandings, abilities, etc leading to highly variable > execution, rather than a consequence of sub par teaching. > Peace everyone. > Andrea > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 21, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Yes, sweaty men?s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women?s arms? Glowing! >> >> >> >> >> From: Callers <callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich >> Sbardella via Callers >> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM >> To: Don Veino <sharedweight_...@veino.com> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> >> Don, >> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD. >> No skin too skin. >> Rich >> >> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact! >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/3dfde8da/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:19:19 +0100 > From: "John Sweeney" <j...@modernjive.com> > To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <002b01d50fb6$45358ea0$cfa0abe0$@modernjive.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see > discussion on this important topic. > > > > There are two very different forearm holds. > > > > *** In front of the elbow ***: > > This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: > > ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each > dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is > to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will > be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally > around the other.? > > > > I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). > > > > I don?t like this one. Sorry. > > > > The connection is not as good as it could be. > > Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s arm. > > It provides the opportunity to grip hard. > > I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and > index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper arm. > This can be uncomfortable. > > > > The one I do like is: > > > > *** Behind the elbow ***: > > Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms > together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above > the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. > > > > This is a great connection. > > There is no need to grip. > > You are close together so that you can turn really well. > > It is very effective for 1.5 turns. > > Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. > > It can be achieved instantaneously. > > There is little opportunity to mess it up. > > > > You can see it being used in this video: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo > > There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right > (two ladies - one in grey). > > > > We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip > the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t > pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). > > > > I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. > > > > Try them and see what you think. > > > > (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the > caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands > underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) > > > > (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in > Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I > still love it.) > > > > (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) > > > > Happy dancing, > > John > > > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 > 574 > > http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs > > > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent > > > http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/b127557f/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:11:53 +0100 > From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller....@gmail.com> > To: John Sweeney <j...@modernjive.com> > Cc: "Caller's discussion list" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: > <caapffdbzl5ubtdskbpvuh6mokyau16mprqof0w-crkw4jh4...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the > increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that > thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! > > However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of > disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some > awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would > be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly > vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. > > I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a > clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? > > Bob > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers < > callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >> discussion on this important topic. >> >> >> >> There are two very different forearm holds. >> >> >> >> *** In front of the elbow ***: >> >> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >> >> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with >> whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of >> the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is >> moving equally around the other.? >> >> >> >> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >> >> >> >> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >> >> >> >> The connection is not as good as it could be. >> >> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >> arm. >> >> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >> >> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >> >> >> >> The one I do like is: >> >> >> >> *** Behind the elbow ***: >> >> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >> >> >> >> This is a great connection. >> >> There is no need to grip. >> >> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >> >> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >> >> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >> >> It can be achieved instantaneously. >> >> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >> >> >> >> You can see it being used in this video: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >> >> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >> right (two ladies - one in grey). >> >> >> >> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >> >> >> >> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >> >> >> >> Try them and see what you think. >> >> >> >> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >> >> >> >> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years >> in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now >> and I still love it.) >> >> >> >> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >> >> >> >> Happy dancing, >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music >> Ceilidhs >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/3c610c8c/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:46:55 +0100 > From: "John Sweeney" <j...@modernjive.com> > To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <005001d50fca$e3e4f0e0$abaed2a0$@modernjive.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves! > > > > Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down > Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All hands > are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to > assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather > than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to > the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.? (Sadly very > few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; > they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left > instead of Swing Thru!) > > > > I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold > in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability to > spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to > spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find a > way to get people to do it better? > > > > Happy dancing, > > John > > > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 > 574 > > http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs > > > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent > > > http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs > > > > > > From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller....@gmail.com> > Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12 > To: John Sweeney <j...@modernjive.com> > Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > > > > I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the > increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that > thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! > > > > However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of > disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some > awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be > clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly > vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. > > > > I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a > clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? > > > > Bob > > > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers > <callers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > > wrote: > > Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see > discussion on this important topic. > > > > There are two very different forearm holds. > > > > *** In front of the elbow ***: > > This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: > > ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each > dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is > to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will > be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally > around the other.? > > > > I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). > > > > I don?t like this one. Sorry. > > > > The connection is not as good as it could be. > > Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s arm. > > It provides the opportunity to grip hard. > > I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and > index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper arm. > This can be uncomfortable. > > > > The one I do like is: > > > > *** Behind the elbow ***: > > Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms > together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above > the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. > > > > This is a great connection. > > There is no need to grip. > > You are close together so that you can turn really well. > > It is very effective for 1.5 turns. > > Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. > > It can be achieved instantaneously. > > There is little opportunity to mess it up. > > > > You can see it being used in this video: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo > > There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right > (two ladies - one in grey). > > > > We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip > the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t > pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). > > > > I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. > > > > Try them and see what you think. > > > > (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the > caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands > underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) > > > > (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in > Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I > still love it.) > > > > (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) > > > > Happy dancing, > > John > > > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com > <mailto:j...@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574 > > > http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs > > > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent > > > http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs > > > > _______________________________________________ > List Name: Callers mailing list > List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/4ee4785d/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:50:34 -0400 > From: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-g...@bellsouth.net> > Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <ed001484-b47c-4463-998b-1c9201bcf...@bellsouth.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I think thumb pressure, even finger ?pressure? has to be avoided and it?s > avoidance taught thoroughly no matter the hold. I once had nerve pain for > weeks after a cupped elbow hold in which that nerve going into the front > inside of the elbow was deeply squashed by a zealously gripping digit, I > think thumb. The non universality and also the too close to my bust fingers > (both asthe hand enters and if any jostling occurs) make me dislike that > cupped elbow hold very much, totally besides that nerve pinch I had. The > forearm is taught explicitly as not a grip and I think it works fine for > every turn I?ve attempted. Rory o mores and box circulates, not being turns, > would be taught using a W arm, fingertip connection or however we want to > cast that. > I too want to hear how the flat palm to palm could even work and how it is > motivated. > Also, while we have extolled the virtues of forearm and elbow cup, or even > the old hold, I haven?t heard anyone deny how often it fails, with wrists > twisted and shoulders and elbows straining, fingers squished, tender parts of > hands hurt, and/or weight utterly missing or arm wrestle level. Above all > I?m waiting for someone to say they have a way to teach it that truly > prevents these many evils. I can?t get behind it whole heartedly, however > theoretically universal, until we have that. > Andrea > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, John Sweeney via Callers >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves! >> >> Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down >> Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, ?All hands >> are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to >> assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather >> than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to >> the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.? (Sadly >> very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood >> this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & >> Left instead of Swing Thru!) >> >> I don?t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold >> in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn?t give the ability >> to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want >> to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find >> a way to get people to do it better? >> >> Happy dancing, >> John >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> >> From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller....@gmail.com> >> Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12 >> To: John Sweeney <j...@modernjive.com> >> Cc: Caller's discussion list <call...@sharedweight.net> >> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety >> >> I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the >> increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that >> thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows! >> >> However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of >> disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some >> awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would >> be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly >> vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference. >> >> I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a >> clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option? >> >> Bob >> >> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> Hmm? I seem to have stirred up a hornet?s nest! It is great to see >> discussion on this important topic. >> >> There are two very different forearm holds. >> >> *** In front of the elbow ***: >> This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as: >> ?Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. >> Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom >> he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the >> turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving >> equally around the other.? >> >> I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong). >> >> I don?t like this one. Sorry. >> >> The connection is not as good as it could be. >> Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person?s >> arm. >> It provides the opportunity to grip hard. >> I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb >> and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person?s upper >> arm. This can be uncomfortable. >> >> The one I do like is: >> >> *** Behind the elbow ***: >> Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms >> together. Place your curved hand behind your partner?s forearm, just above >> the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical. >> >> This is a great connection. >> There is no need to grip. >> You are close together so that you can turn really well. >> It is very effective for 1.5 turns. >> Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced. >> It can be achieved instantaneously. >> There is little opportunity to mess it up. >> >> You can see it being used in this video: >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo >> There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the >> right (two ladies - one in grey). >> >> We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip >> the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don?t >> pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer). >> >> I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style. >> >> Try them and see what you think. >> >> (P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the >> caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands >> underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!) >> >> (P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in >> Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I >> still love it.) >> >> (P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.) >> >> Happy dancing, >> John >> >> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 >> 940 574 >> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs >> >> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >> >> http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ >> _______________________________________________ >> List Name: Callers mailing list >> List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net >> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/a54e757c/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 18:31:22 +0100 > From: "John Sweeney" <j...@modernjive.com> > To: "'Caller's discussion list'" <call...@sharedweight.net> > Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety > Message-ID: <001901d50ffb$025a06c0$070e1440$@modernjive.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Andrea, > > Absolutely. All moves should be taught explicitly as not a grip. > > > > Amazing! There is always something new to learn. I have been > dancing the cupped elbow hold for over 50 years, and taught it to literally > thousands of dancers. I have never heard about there being a challenge > regarding bust contact. I checked with my wife and she has never encountered > it either. > > > > Just to clarify: I was not suggesting in any way that either > forearm hold should be used in modern American contra dancing. I was just > clarifying the various version of the move in response to someone?s query > about what the hold is. > > > > The cupped elbow hold definitely has its place in various parts > of the wonderful spectrum of traditional/folk/country/contra dancing. > > > > I would only ever suggest it as an option in contra dancing if > someone had an injury and didn?t want to use the standard contra Allemande > hold. It could also be offered in self-defence, instead of the fist-to-fist > ?hold?, when encountering someone in the line that you know is likely to hurt > you. > > > > The standard contra Allemande hold is undoubtedly here to stay. > It is by far the best option for moves like Rory O?More and Swing Thru, and > it is established across the world as the way to do a modern American contra > dance Allemande. > > > > So, all we can try to do is improve people?s technique. > > > > Quite often a new caller will learn how to call a dance, get up > in front of an experienced crowd, walk through the dance calling the moves, > then call the dance, calling all the right words at the right time, and > relying on the experienced dancers to help the beginners through the dance. > The dance works. The caller will then consider themself to be a contra dance > caller, without ever having actually taught anything at all. > > > > In the UK the EFDSS changed the name of the person holding the > microphone from ?teacher? to ?caller? some time in the 1950s. > > > > I feel that very few modern callers realise that teaching is > part of the job. > > > > We callers are the only ones who can improve the dancers? > technique. I just wish that all callers realised this and took > responsibility for it. It only takes a few seconds during each walk-through > to drop a pearl of wisdom into the mix. It doesn?t take long to say one of > these: > > > > Allemande: It?s not arm-wrestling - if your hand moves towards you, you lose! > > > > Allemande: Make a good connection then relax - your muscles are for fighting > centrifugal force, not your partner. > > > > Allemande 1.5: Keep your hands mid-way between you with nice W-shaped arms > and take bigger steps. > > > > Circle Left 3/4; Pass Through: It?s six steps for the circle and two to pass > through - don?t be late for your new neighbour. > > > > Swing: Plan the end of the move so your are both facing the right way on time. > > > Wrist-Lock Stars: Make sure your thumb is on top with your fingers so that > you can?t grip. > > > > Etc. > > > > I have often though of putting a poster at the door saying, > ?Leave your thumbs at the door!? > > > > Maybe we could all share our favourite teaching phrases and make > a database of them to encourage all callers to do some teaching. > > > > Happy dancing, > > John > > > > John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 > 574 > > http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs > > > http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent > > > http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers-sharedweight.net/attachments/20190521/96e98d10/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Callers Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 > ************************************** _______________________________________________ List Name: Callers mailing list List Address: Callers@lists.sharedweight.net Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
