yes I see now, special techniques to get the dynamic range. Good luck with the research. -------- Original message --------From: Karl Warnick <[email protected]> Date: 22/08/2024 19:31 (GMT+00:00) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Thanks to all for very helpful responses. I have some great leads now that I'm looking into. Neil, here's a phase noise spec for an HP/Keysight 8648. It's good enough to measure phase noise in moderate quality clocks, but a better setup can measure down to around -170 dBc/Hz at 100 kHz offset from the carrier. Best, Karl On 8/21/2024 2:02 AM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:"Comic Sans MS"; panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}span.gmailsignatureprefix {mso-style-name:gmail_signature_prefix;}span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} Hi Karl, It’s perhaps a naïve question, but how far can you get in measuring phase noise using a good spectrum analyser? I’ve an old HP dial up oscillator up to 40 GHz tube source that has phase noise -107 dBc/Hz 100 kHz from the carrier. Cheers, Neil From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Daniel Blakley Sent: 21 August 2024 05:57 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Dear Karl, I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this is a good place to ask others who may. I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. -Daniel Blakley On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick <[email protected]> wrote: Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu. -- -Daniel Blakley -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/CAJa6%3DL1qhK7U6BZCpKxcVq6R_jiUyVtOF11Sy7rxaojsVt_OhQ%40mail.gmail.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/001a01daf3a0%2473c331e0%245b4995a0%24%40tiscali.co.uk. -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732
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