We might have just found a new recurring discussion - what to do with insertion 
codes! I am sure the opinion split is close to 50/50.

Personally, I don't think insertion codes make sense in the first place. Are 
catalytic triad residues always the same distance from the N-terminus? No. The 
residue number designates its position in the sequence, not its relationship to 
other like-minded enzymes.  That is a useful (as it defines peptide bonds) and 
consistent definition.  Even with antibodies, where these can be indeed 
interpreted as insertions, the mess is enormous since only half the structures 
conform to Wu&Kabat numbering (and there are two of those).

It is true however that it's just as easy to implement sorting that pays 
attention to insertion codes as it is structural alignment based residue 
matching.

Cheers,

Ed.

-------- Original message --------
From: [email protected] 
Date:  
To: [email protected] 
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Link problem with Refmac. 
 
I fully second this. The treatment of insertion codes of many programs
is a mess, leaving you with the option to renumber (and loose contact
with often a huge body of existing literature), or stuff the pdb with
link and gap records (if recognized at all by the program used).  

It would be a great help if the programmers would use a simple distance
criterion (e.g. N - C distance < 2.0 A) to decide whether amino acids
are linked instead of forcing a link between residues which are more
than 10 A apart as in the current case.

Cheers,
Herman


-----Original Message-----
From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Robbie Joosten
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 10:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Link problem with Refmac.

Hi Ian,

I avoid renumbering whenever I can. If I do have to renumber things
(e.g. to get proper connectivity in PDB entry 2j8g), I do it by hand. So
no help there.

As for dealing with insertion codes in general, why not try to convince
the developers of the 'brain-damaged'  to support insertion codes? I've
asked quite a few for these sort of updates and many were very helpful.
The problem is that most developers discover the existence of insertion
codes after they set up a data structure for the coordinates. Adding
support afterwards can be quite a hassle. The more users ask for such
support, the more likely it will be implemented. 

Cheers,
Robbie 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 
> Ian Tickle
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 19:40
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Link problem with Refmac.
> 
> Hi Robbie
> 
> 
> OK I just realised what's going on.  In my script I renumber the input

> PDB
file
> (starting at 1 for each chain and incrementing by 1) and keep the 
> mapping
so
> I can renumber it back afterwards for human consumption.  So you're 
> completely correct: there is indeed a residue A59 after renumbering!  
> This
is
> to avoid headaches with brain-damaged programs that can't cope with 
> insertion codes and residue numbers out of sequence.  So I guess I'm 
> going to have to be smarter in my renumbering program and make sure I 
> maintain any increasing gaps in the numbering which indicate real gaps

> in the sequence and only renumber over insertions and decreasing gaps.

> It
doesn't
> actually matter what the new numbers are since the user never sees
them.
> 
> 
> But this must be a common problem: how do others handle this?  E.g. 
> pdbset blindly renumbers with a increment of 1 (and anyway it doesn't 
> renumber any LINK, SSBOND & CISPEP records as I do) so it would have 
> the same problem.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> -- Ian
> 
> 
> 
> On 18 February 2013 17:09, Robbie Joosten <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Ian,
> 
> The warning refers to a MET 59 in chain A whereas you only have
MET 
> 72. That
> is very suspicious. Non-sequential residues further apart than x

> Angstrom
> automatically get a gap record. Have you tried a newer version
of 
> Refmac,
> because this feature was added quite a while ago?
> What is your setting for 'MAKE CONN' when you run Refmac?
> 
> Cheers,
> Robbie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf 
> Of
> > Ian Tickle
> > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 17:32
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [ccp4bb] Link problem with Refmac.
> >
> >
> > All, I'm having a problem with Refmac (v. 5.7.0025) that I
don't
> understand.
> > It's linking 2 residues that it shouldn't be.  Here's the
relevant 
> message
> in the
> > log file:
> >
> >   WARNING : large distance for conn:TRANS    dist =    10.768
> >             ch:AA   res:  58  THR             -->  59  MET
> ideal_dist=     1.329
> >
> > Note that there are no LINK (or LINKR) records in the PDB
header.
> >
> >
> > Here are the input co-ords for the relevant residues (not
linked):
> >
> > ATOM    887  N   THR A  58      13.587   1.365  19.814  1.00
14.28
A
> N
> > ATOM    888  CA  THR A  58      14.743   1.126  18.960  1.00
17.64
A
> C
> > ATOM    890  CB  THR A  58      14.325   0.613  17.567  1.00
17.69
A
> C
> > ATOM    892  OG1 THR A  58      13.605   1.650  16.879  1.00
15.24
A
> O
> > ATOM    894  CG2 THR A  58      13.505  -0.658  17.658  1.00
17.33
A
> C
> > ATOM    898  C   THR A  58      15.573   2.346  18.631  1.00
22.80
A
> C
> > ATOM    899  O   THR A  58      15.144   3.492  18.842  1.00
20.41
A
> O
> > ATOM    956  N   MET A  72      13.605  -6.845  13.378  1.00
43.23
A
> N
> > ATOM    957  CA  MET A  72      12.268  -6.980  12.733  1.00
39.06
A
> C
> > ATOM    959  CB  MET A  72      12.308  -6.361  11.331  1.00
42.06
A
> C
> > ATOM    962  CG  MET A  72      12.455  -4.846  11.320  1.00
43.45
A
> C
> > ATOM    965  SD  MET A  72      13.020  -4.153   9.755  1.00
46.07
A
> S
> > ATOM    966  CE  MET A  72      14.695  -4.789   9.653  1.00
49.84
A
> C
> > ATOM    970  C   MET A  72      11.544  -8.344  12.624  1.00
36.94
A
> C
> > ATOM    971  O   MET A  72      10.314  -8.353  12.558  1.00
34.24
A
> O
> >
> >
> > Here are the same residues (linked) after refinement:
> >
> > ATOM    887  N   THR A  58      14.212   0.104  18.340  1.00
43.09
A
> N
> > ATOM    888  CA  THR A  58      14.332  -1.166  17.541  1.00
45.12
A
> C
> > ATOM    890  CB  THR A  58      12.906  -1.657  17.309  1.00
39.26
A
> C
> > ATOM    892  OG1 THR A  58      12.400  -1.039  16.117  1.00
38.40
A
> O
> > ATOM    894  CG2 THR A  58      12.010  -1.301  18.435  1.00
33.96
A
> C
> > ATOM    898  C   THR A  58      14.805  -1.376  16.064  1.00
59.98
A
> C
> > ATOM    899  O   THR A  58      15.304  -0.470  15.386  1.00
69.73
A
> O
> > ATOM    901  N   MET A  72      14.609  -2.641  15.623  1.00
61.67
A
> N
> > ATOM    902  CA  MET A  72      13.990  -2.997  14.308  1.00
60.32
A
> C
> > ATOM    904  CB  MET A  72      14.898  -2.730  13.093  1.00
71.29
A
> C
> > ATOM    907  CG  MET A  72      14.126  -2.345  11.812  1.00
73.22
A
> C
> > ATOM    910  SD  MET A  72      12.912  -3.499  11.087  1.00
69.42
A
> S
> > ATOM    911  CE  MET A  72      13.917  -4.503   9.996  1.00
63.68
A
> C
> > ATOM    915  C   MET A  72      13.413  -4.438  14.205  1.00
59.57
A
> C
> > ATOM    916  O   MET A  72      12.199  -4.599  14.130  1.00
60.33
A
> O
> >
> >
> > Residues 59-71 are present but in a poorly defined loop so I 
> definitely do
> not
> > want residues 58 & 72 linked!  I'm puzzled because I'm sure it
never
> used
> to
> > do this, i.e. you had to specify a LINK if you wanted one and
Refmac
> was
> > smart enough to recognise that residues across a break should
not 
> be
> linked.
> > So how do I tell it NOT to link them?
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > -- Ian
> >
> 
> 

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