ok, what about the others? I'm sure his commanding officer(s) are lying as well..........
I just googled it and c & p'd from first page that came up, didnt feel like c & p'ing the thousands of others. ---------------------------------------- From: "Larry C. Lyons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:30 PM To: CF-Community <[email protected]> Subject: Re: America's Insurgents Interesting source you bring up " Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" nice group - with several people who worked for the bush campaign in the governing committee of SBVT. W've rehashed this quite a few times. Do a search on Swift Boat. As a source this group has even less credibility than the RNC. On Apr 12, 2005 1:22 PM, dave wrote: > google it Larry, its full of info for ya > > "We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from > Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast > an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in > Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we > think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to > the American people. We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is > totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief." > -- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth > > "I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed > forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of > his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute > tenets of command. His > bio graphy, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross > exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His > contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual > review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam > War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his > political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive > judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a > 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with > his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous > betrayal of all United States forces in the Vietnam War. That included our > soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our > POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War > and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities > remain an undocumented but nevert heless meticulous stain on the men and > women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command." > -- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for > Truth > .. > "During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three > specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are > the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby > shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in > the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as > murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all > military veterans and their families. > Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain > for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is > 'requires constant supervision.'" > -- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) > .. > "Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain > of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who > served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again. Our young > men and women who are serving deserve no less." > -- Andrew Horne > .. > "In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a > 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the > atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my > obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would > certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated > in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated > to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political > purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my > service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him > totally unqualified to serve as commander-in-Chief." > -- Jeffrey Wainscott > .. > "I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that > someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the > United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to > join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and > attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was > so valiantly pursuing. > It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. > We lost the war at home... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General." > -- Robert Elder > .. > "My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They > wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe > the things that are described happened. Let me give you an example. In > Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De > massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the > engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. > Three of us were wounded. I was the first..." -- Joseph Ponder > .. > "While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination > missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted > Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after > revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry > informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of > shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was > later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had > exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any > medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later > received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how > or whom. Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 > months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his forme r > shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we > are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement > were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even > return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that > innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. > The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that > we might take friendly casualties." > -- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired) > .. > "Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and > allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were > cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. > Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts > were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony > before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe tha t what > was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. > Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law > of war by those within the chain of command. Very specific orders, on file at > the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father > [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing > subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of > Vietnamese civilians." > -- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired) > .. > "We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in > isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I > deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal > of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions." > -- Barnard Wolff > .. > "In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war > crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American > fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... collateral > damage. When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of > Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my > neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my > comrades had > committed unspeakable atrocities." > -- David Wallace > .. > "I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served > honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to > atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported > to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry. In > 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and > claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all > villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has > appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. > It just galls one to think about it." > -- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired) > .. > "During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of > duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the > vietnamization of the Navy units. Now when I went there right after Tet, I > was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the > Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I > wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were > going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but > yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. > He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover > and so on. That conference never happened..." -- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, > USCG (retired) . > > "I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period > that John Kerry wa s there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and > every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way > around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called > atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done. This is not true. > We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight." > -- William Shumadine > > "In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans > as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because > even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never > witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused > us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not > only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' > efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some > veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a > life of despair and sui cide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that > there is no forgiveness. " > -- Richard O'Meara > .. > "My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty > in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved > with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I > know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served > alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and > watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, > put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew > boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?" > -- Steven Gardner > .. > "I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My > service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine > months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi > the same time I was. I'm here today to e xpress the anger I have harbored for > over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war > atrocities. All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the > Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other > 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best." > -- Robert Brant > .. > "I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing > cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John > Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at > the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the > same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor > planning of Sea Lord missions. I signed this letter because I feel that he > used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and > now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war > hero. He cannot have it both ways, an d we are here to ask for full > disclosure of the proof of his claims." > -- James Steffes > > ---------------------------------------- > From: "Larry C. Lyons" > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:41 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: America's Insurgents > > So give some legitimate citations instead of personal insults. Wall > Street Journal, LA Herald, Seattle Times, Washington Post or the > Washington Times would be a good starter. > > Otherwise for all we know Without an independent source how do we > know that you are not simply spewing bullshit. > > On Apr 11, 2005 10:50 PM, dave wrote: > > If it means that much to you, then I am sure you can google it and find it. > > > > So anything you don't read or listen to must be a "propaganda" station? > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:153634 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:5 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
