Wait, now I remember another thing I wanted to say... You left out the
Clinton's. ("Vast right-wing conspiracy?")
> This type of attack was used by McCarthy and Reagan.
Michael Corrigan
Programmer
Endora Digital Solutions
www.endoradigital.com
630/942-5211 x-134
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr.
To: CF-Community
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a common
tool
in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. "Boiling it down"
can
oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of context. Watch
Bill
O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are
increasingly
being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their agendas or
to be
afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack.
I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type of attack
was used
by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you must not be
with us
and you must agree with the other side." It is happening in the news
and in
politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't support
the
war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave America
because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the
armed
forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has exploited other
countries and pissed some people off? You must be un-American. Think
the
Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer (see his past
writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror
legislation
are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program
soldier"
("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort is made to
understand the other side of the argument, just attack the arguer (ad
hominem).
What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad infinitum)...
done
so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without
birquas(sp)
on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped
terrorism
at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the ground for one?
After
the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the
political
capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what the war is
costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or endless talk
about
some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or sports). I think
there
are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the distractions.
Opium
for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a fortune for it.
BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I am talking
the
nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track
down, I
am talking what most Americans will see.
Anyway, I am tired. Good night.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
>
>
> Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't
> doubt it was
> an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your
case it
> seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was
intended for
> your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other
> members on
> this board and discredit my original intentions. In short, to put
words in
> my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my agreeing/condoning
the
> taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along
> with labeling
> my words "liberal mantra".
>
> I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'.
> If you take
> one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is sugar, but
coke
> (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on sugar, but there
is
> nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity.
>
> This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of
> Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use
> the 'street
> celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross generalisation
> equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food addicted ignorant
> war-loving facists". Neither of these two description are fair and
> demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part
> responsible for
> this ignorance. This is my objection.
>
> Benjamin
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
>
>
> > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to boil down
your
> > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a chance to
respond
> and
> > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking
> you. I was
> > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when
> presented with,
> > what even you described as factual, news accounts.
> >
> > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- the news is
biased,
> but
> > it's factual.
> >
> > You can't have it both ways.
> >
> > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted,
uninformed
> view
> > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- people who
don't
> like
> > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one who
says,
> > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very
convenient
> position
> > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around without ever being
in a
> > position to honestly face your own biases.
> >
> > H.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> >
> >
> > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of
> non-mainstream
> > thinking...
> >
> > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so
called
> > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a
discussion
> > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said that, I don't
welcome
> you
> > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on the Taliban
> and their
> > oppressive regime.
> >
> > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned
media by
> > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the
news. Your
> > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as "liberal mantra"
if you
> > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no credit as it
implies
> > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a
> discussion of any
> > real depth.
> >
> > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of
good.
> >
> > Benjamin
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM
> > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> >
> >
> > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil
down for
> you
> > > what I hear you saying:
> > >
> > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may be
off
> because
> > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is some
how
> > obscured.
> > >
> > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree,
> and no longer
> > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base any
> > conclusions
> > > this "newstainment."
> > >
> > > Am I understanding you correctly?
> > >
> > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating,
stoning and
> > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a
> network news
> > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A
Taliban
> denial
> > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to stone
those
> women
> > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.")
> > >
> > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's what I
hear
> you
> > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive.
> > >
> > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are
> delivered. And
> no
> > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal
> mantra of we
> > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify what
the
> > Taliban
> > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan.
> > >
> > > H.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > >
> > >
> > > Beth,
> > >
> > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated
> understanding of
> my
> > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to expand
my
> > perspetive
> > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even though
the
> > original
> > > post was not even address to you.
> > >
> > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened to
any
> > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but I
> did not in
> > any
> > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services
(mostly)
> deliver
> > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka
> cola; coke
> is
> > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the
"oppression of
> > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end
> result delivered
> > by
> > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a manufacured
> construct
> > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is how I
view
> > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no
> different from,
> > and
> > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the
nineties
> film
> > > "Wag the Dog".
> > >
> > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive music
and
> > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly
whose
> > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the
> reach of this
> > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of presentations
are not
> at
> > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the entertainment
industry
> as
> > a
> > > whole.
> > >
> > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making
judgements
> upon
> > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information
> offensive.
> > >
> > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on
true
> > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion
> on the news
> > is
> > > an extension of this logic.
> > >
> > > Benjamin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > >
> > >
> > > > Folks!!
> > > >
> > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a
> myth, made
> up
> > > by
> > > > the media.
> > > >
> > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women several
> years ago
> > when
> > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she make
it up
> too?
> > > was
> > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she told
of
> women
> > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom
> they weren't
> > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers
> and doctors
> > > made
> > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no
longer
> > allowed
> > > to
> > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about the
> wonderful
> > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach girls
dont'
> exist
> > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed to
go to
> > school?
> > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was
> made up for
> > > WHAT
> > > > REASON?
> > > >
> > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music again,
shaving
> > their
> > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really
> oppressed its just
> a
> > > > media invention, right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in it's
> > > representation
> > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as it's
exists
> for
> > > us).
> > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed to
promote
> > this
> > > > > kind
> > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these
being the
> > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression of
women in
> > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the developed
and made
> > self
> > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets
> until they
> > > become
> > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial popularity.
There
> > simplify
> > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the fast
food
> culture
> > > > > that
> > > > > is America.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :(
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids. There
were PA
> > police
> > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news from
it.
> There
> > > > > were
> > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I
> know people
> > who
> > > > > live
> > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many others.
> > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It
> started with
> a
> > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage.
> > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of some
truly
> > sick
> > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering of
others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >As or your second quesion...
> > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids
> > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that is
> > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the
> > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women
> > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its
> > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was
> > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was
> > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media
> > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or
> > > > > > >confirm the reports....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do
> > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does
> > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets,
> > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found her
> > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the
> > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more
> > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a Palestinian
> > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of
> > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and
> > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was
> > > > > > >happening here..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get there
> > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came
> > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt
> > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady
> > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which
> > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for
> > > > > > >joy!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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