Very nice reply Michael. I to am busy (for real, server is down, IT is slow to fix it, etc.).
While there are liberals in the media (I never said they were not there) they just often are not heard. I would be hard pressed to call anyone I see on FoxNews a liberal. That being, there is no one that the 'people' see. Maybe the token liberal Colmes. But he is not what I would call an aggressive liberal like McKinnley was. Probably wants to keep his job. Here again we get to the liberal vs. conservative thing. It is not easy for either you or I to be grouped into any one of these camps. We (the global we, not you and I) see things from different perspectives, different experiences and that colors our views and perceptions of the world we live in. The world of marketing and "in your face media" (of any form) is what our children are bombarded with. It is a sad reality that marketing works very well on children (and people?) and it is everywhere. Perhaps the area that saddens me the most is that the news would be "targeted" at a least common denominator. Ratings of the news seem pitiful to me. The news should be objective, not someone "selling" me on watching. "Fair and unbiased news" or "you are now entering a no spin zone". Like I should need to be told that. Hell, let me figure it out for myself. I know when I am being fed liberal or conservative BS. Anyway, that was a good reply and I appreciated it. -Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:26 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > Gary, > > You're just a big silly man! I'm staying out of this one man. It's > even too much for me to touch...ok, I'll throw in my two cents...but > it's going to have to be quick because I'm very <holding back a laugh> > busy. > > I agree that watching FoxNews or CNN or PMSNBC (couldn't resist) > exclusively is not really the best way to educate yourself on the > ongoings of the world or even in your own community. I balance all of > that crap with print journalism as well. Ok, I confess that most of it > is by conservative writers, but I don't feel that the 'mainstream' media > is very objective and I like to get the other side. Speaking of > O'Reilly, I caught the interview last night with a guy from US News and > World report (forget his name though...sorry) that agreed that there is, > without a doubt, a lean to the left (in general) in the US media. Now > that's not to say that the NY Times from front to back is a liberal rag, > I'm not saying that at all, but it does lean to the left. The > interviewee that I mentioned above talked about the culture in the > newsroom and that culture consists of pro-abortion rights, > pro-affirmative action, pro-multiculturalism, etc. All of which are > positions taken by liberals (not meant to sound pejorative). My > brother-in-law works for the Chicago Tribune who is an unapologetic > liberal admits that this is the case. Of the hundreds of people that he > has worked with over the years there, he has not known too many to be > conservative and those that are and are not high profile writers (like a > David Limbaugh or a Bob Novak), are usually outcast. So how does one > combat this? By reading as many articles on a certain topic as you can. > For example, if I wanted to know more about what happened with Enron, I > would want to learn as much as I can by reading other stories on it and > drawing my own conclusions based on the 'research' that I've done. > > Let me simplify my point; IMO the news organizations cater to the lowest > common denominator in order to get ratings. If they 'dumb' things down > enough, then those that want to expend the least amount of time and > energy on this stuff will watch. Throw in some neat-o graphics and > you've got the recipe for a ratings winner. Is it wrong that they do > that? Now that would be an interesting debate. I don't think so. I > put the responsibility on the individual to educate themselves and to > question these things. I will <gulp> agree with Benjamin on this point > though, our culture is becoming increasingly lazy. I have a one year > old boy and I want to do the things that Michael talked about earlier > and exposing them to as much learning and culture as I can, but it's > difficult, as a parent to combat the constant barrage of information > that exists here. I was walking out of church on Sunday and this little > girl, no more that 7 or 8 years old, had one of those glittery t-shirt's > on that said "Sexy Girl." I about crapped my pants. Then I had to > laugh because she was standing in front of a large glass door dancing > like Britney Aguilera and spanking her butt and she looked really > stupid. > > OK, I must shutup now because I'm babbling. > > Michael Corrigan > Programmer > Endora Digital Solutions > www.endoradigital.com > 630/942-5211 x-134 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary P. McNeel, Jr. > To: CF-Community > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:37 AM > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > Whether Howard meant to do this intentionally or not, this is a common > tool > in American media (on both sides), maybe in others. "Boiling it down" > can > oversimplify complex issues and make them seem out of context. Watch > Bill > O'Reilly, he is a master at this. It is a common tool. We are > increasingly > being taught to NOT be skeptical of our leaders and their agendas or > to be > afraid to question their actions for fear of a personal attack. > > I have been attacked in here for my same views. This type of attack > was used > by McCarthy and Reagan. "If you don't agree with us, you must not be > with us > and you must agree with the other side." It is happening in the news > and in > politics everyday in America. It happens in this group. Don't support > the > war? You must be anti-American (re: Beth saying I should leave America > because I exercise the very rights I and others have served in the > armed > forces to protect). Think maybe the way America has exploited other > countries and pissed some people off? You must be un-American. Think > the > Attorney General is a right-wing, neo-Nazi sympathizer (see his past > writings and remarks)? Think these new tribunals and anti-terror > legislation > are knee-jerk? You must be anti-American. "Get with the program > soldier" > ("FMJ"). Who's side are you on? Etc. Etc. No real effort is made to > understand the other side of the argument, just attack the arguer (ad > hominem). > > What has the War In Afghanistan (America's Next War, ad infinitum)... > done > so far? We really don't know. Sure, there are some women without > birquas(sp) > on. And some men have shaved beards. But have we actually stopped > terrorism > at all? Have we helped unleash a civil war? Laid the ground for one? > After > the attacks in Israel, I would say no. In a year or two, when the > political > capital of Afghanistan has been spent and we realize what the war is > costing, people will go back to watching "news" of OJ or endless talk > about > some other trivial subject (Condit comes to mind or sports). I think > there > are more sports channels than "news" channels. Feed the distractions. > Opium > for the masses. Cheap to make and people will pay a fortune for it. > > BTW - I have heard zero on the news about the cost, and I am talking > the > nightly or daily news, not some obscure web source I have to track > down, I > am talking what most Americans will see. > > Anyway, I am tired. Good night. > > -Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:04 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > Why do you feel the need to "boil down" my statements? I don't > > doubt it was > > an honest attempt on your part, but why is it nessasary? In your > case it > > seems your 'honest' attempt at boiling down my statements was > intended for > > your then to manipulate my statements to gain support from other > > members on > > this board and discredit my original intentions. In short, to put > words in > > my mouth. Nothing in my posts are indicated my agreeing/condoning > the > > taliban, yet you sarcasically impied this with your post along > > with labeling > > my words "liberal mantra". > > > > I see a distinct difference between news and truth or 'reality'. > > If you take > > one of my previous metaphors, truth (the ingrediant) is sugar, but > coke > > (corporate news) is not sugar, it may be based on sugar, but there > is > > nothing natural or real about it. It's a consumable commodity. > > > > This is my objection put simply. I do condone the sterotyping of > > Palastinians into "American hating terrorists" by people who use > > the 'street > > celebration' footage as an example. This is a gross generalisation > > equivelent to called all americans "fat fast food addicted ignorant > > war-loving facists". Neither of these two description are fair and > > demonstrate radical ignorance. The corporate news is in part > > responsible for > > this ignorance. This is my objection. > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:52 PM > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > It appears that you want to turn an honest attempt to boil down > your > > > statements to their most basic terms (and give you a chance to > respond > > and > > > correct any misunderstanding) as an attack. I wasn't attacking > > you. I was > > > attacking the idea that we shouldn't draw conclusion when > > presented with, > > > what even you described as factual, news accounts. > > > > > > I see you trying to play both sides of the fence -- the news is > biased, > > but > > > it's factual. > > > > > > You can't have it both ways. > > > > > > As a journalist, I also take offense at your narrow-sighted, > uninformed > > view > > > of how a news operation works. It's the old thing -- people who > don't > > like > > > to hear the truth blame the messenger. And then deride any one who > says, > > > "Hey, maybe it's not the messenger's fault." It's a very > convenient > > position > > > to be in -- you can cast aspersions all around without ever being > in a > > > position to honestly face your own biases. > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:28 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > You read into my words through your own stereotypical view of > > non-mainstream > > > thinking... > > > > > > My original post concerned the discussion surrounding the so > called > > > 'celebrating Palastinians'. My critisism was limited to a > discussion > > > concerning oppinions on this footage. Having said that, I don't > welcome > > you > > > putting words in my mouth concerning my position on the Taliban > > and their > > > oppressive regime. > > > > > > You've attempted to discredit my criticism of corporate owned > media by > > > insinuating that I support the Taliban because I mistrust the > news. Your > > > conclusions are weak. You can label my words as "liberal mantra" > if you > > > wish, but in my oppinion this does your position no credit as it > implies > > > you're more interested in labels and stereotypes then a > > discussion of any > > > real depth. > > > > > > Keep watching television Howard. It appears to do you a lot of > good. > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 4:17 PM > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to misstate what you're saying, but let me boil > down for > > you > > > > what I hear you saying: > > > > > > > > 1) The news may be factually correct, though the nuance may be > off > > because > > > > of entertainment values -- therefore, the "real" news is some > how > > > obscured. > > > > > > > > 2) Because the "news" has been remanufactured to a degree, > > and no longer > > > > reflects the raw, unvarnished truth, it is offensive to base any > > > conclusions > > > > this "newstainment." > > > > > > > > Am I understanding you correctly? > > > > > > > > Therefore, we should not condemn the Taliban for beating, > stoning and > > > > murdering women because, by golly, we learned about it on a > > network news > > > > show. And it was edited. And who knows what was left out. A > Taliban > > denial > > > > maybe? Or possibly a Taliban apology ("We didn't mean to stone > those > > women > > > > to death -- the rock just slipped. Sorry.") > > > > > > > > Is that really what you're saying. I mean, because that's what I > hear > > you > > > > saying. And I find it pretty offensive. > > > > > > > > If the facts are correct, it matters little how they are > > delivered. And > > no > > > > amount of political correctness (in this case, the liberal > > mantra of we > > > > shouldn't criticize other "cultures") can possibly justify what > the > > > Taliban > > > > has done to women and dissenters within Afghanistan. > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Benjamin Falloon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:18 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > Beth, > > > > > > > > I'm not certain how you arrived at such an exaggerated > > understanding of > > my > > > > original post. But allow me at least the oppertunity to expand > my > > > perspetive > > > > before you sarcastically attack my posts once more, even though > the > > > original > > > > post was not even address to you. > > > > > > > > I may have refered to television (and this can be broadened to > any > > > > corporately own/operated news service) as manufactured, but I > > did not in > > > any > > > > way insinuate that the 'stories' were myth. News services > (mostly) > > deliver > > > > their content in a highly constructed way. News is like coka > > cola; coke > > is > > > > based on sugar, a 'real world' ingredient, just as the > "oppression of > > > > afghanistan women" may too be 'real world', but the end > > result delivered > > > by > > > > the news services is nothing 'natural'... it is a manufacured > > construct > > > > intentionally mixed to produce the desired effect. This is how I > view > > > > corporate news services. Most of what is aired looks no > > different from, > > > and > > > > indeed reflects the kind of news approach highlighted by the > nineties > > film > > > > "Wag the Dog". > > > > > > > > Images are carefully selected, edited and cut with emotive music > and > > > > commentry designed to promote a certain perspective. Exactly > whose > > > > perspective/interests/politics represented are beyond the > > reach of this > > > > discussion, but the net effect of these kinds of presentations > are not > > at > > > > all dissimilar to those effects achieved by the entertainment > industry > > as > > > a > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > News is entertainment/entertainment is news. I find making > judgements > > upon > > > > other peoples/cultures etc based on this kind of information > > offensive. > > > > > > > > I recall a previous post by Gary that brought up the lack on > true > > > > investigative reporting in the main stream news. My oppinion > > on the news > > > is > > > > an extension of this logic. > > > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Fleischer, Beth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:12 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks!! > > > > > > > > > > did you hear it! The oppression of afghanistan women is a > > myth, made > > up > > > > by > > > > > the media. > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin, I heard about the plight of afghani women several > > years ago > > > when > > > > > an afghan woman came to speak at a university. Did she make > it up > > too? > > > > was > > > > > she in on the big media conspiracy? Were the stories she told > of > > women > > > > > being killed for walking down the street with a man whom > > they weren't > > > > > married to made up too? Were the stories of female lawyers > > and doctors > > > > made > > > > > up too? And she left afghanistan not because she was no > longer > > > allowed > > > > to > > > > > practice law there, but just to spread these lies about the > > wonderful > > > > > taliban rule? All those underground schools to teach girls > dont' > > exist > > > > > right - because under the taliban rule girls WERE allowed to > go to > > > school? > > > > > And all this information I received prior to 9/11 - it was > > made up for > > > > WHAT > > > > > REASON? > > > > > > > > > > so, all the people in afghanistan listening to music again, > shaving > > > their > > > > > beards, taking off their masks, they weren't really > > oppressed its just > > a > > > > > media invention, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The western media is at best, extrodinatily limited in it's > > > > representation > > > > > > of 'real people' in the middle east (or media east as it's > exists > > for > > > > us). > > > > > > Furthermore, it's representation is more often designed to > promote > > > this > > > > > > kind > > > > > > of discussion by manufacture of 'stories' (one of these > being the > > > > > > celebrating Palistinians, another being the oppression of > women in > > > > > > Aphganistan for example). These stories are the developed > and made > > > self > > > > > > referencial, repeated over and over by all media outlets > > until they > > > > become > > > > > > the measure of oppinion polls on presidencial popularity. > There > > > simplify > > > > > > polarize and synthasize politics and culture for the fast > food > > culture > > > > > > that > > > > > > is America. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:18 AM > > > > > > Subject: RE: Massive blasts rock Central Jerusalem :( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. There were a LOT more than 1 woman and 5 kids. There > were PA > > > police > > > > > > > taking camera's away from reporters to avoid the news from > it. > > There > > > > > > were > > > > > > > letters of protest from the AP and Reuters over it. I > > know people > > > who > > > > > > live > > > > > > > in Israel and have first hand reports as do many others. > > > > > > > 2. The rumor that it was old footage was debunked. It > > started with > > a > > > > > > > student in Argentina and spread. It was real footage. > > > > > > > 3. I don't condemn any Palestinian for the actions of some > truly > > > sick > > > > > > > people who take pride and happiness in the suffering of > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As or your second quesion... > > > > > > > >First, that clip of a women dancing and five kids > > > > > > > >clapping there hands, I wouldnt realy know how that is > > > > > > > >considred 'my people', last time i checked, the > > > > > > > >Palestinian population was not reprented by a women > > > > > > > >and 5 kids, and yes, a car passing by blowings its > > > > > > > >horn...Second, CNN, which first aired the clip, was > > > > > > > >and still is accused of airing an old clip which was > > > > > > > >taking during the Iraq war, except , sadly, no media > > > > > > > >outlet would ever let the story run, nor deny or > > > > > > > >confirm the reports.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Now i dont know if that is right or wrong, I do > > > > > > > >believe that YES, its very possible that there does > > > > > > > >exist a palestinian women who danced in the streets, > > > > > > > >and its so re-assuring that a camera somehow found her > > > > > > > >dancing and aired her image, two hours after the > > > > > > > >incident.....I would think there would be more > > > > > > > >pressing issues at that time,but i guess a Palestinian > > > > > > > >women supposedly dancing in the streets of > > > > > > > >Palestine,is more important than the those tens and > > > > > > > >thousands of casualties and the chaos that was > > > > > > > >happening here.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I guess the Palestinians where just about to get there > > > > > > > >independence and your blessings, and this women came > > > > > > > >and screwed everything up for us!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >BTW, the women was kinda a heavy set, so i wouldnt > > > > > > > >realy call it "Jumping up for Joy", the poor old lady > > > > > > > >could barely walk, but she was eating sweets, which > > > > > > > >does probably translate to her as jumping up for > > > > > > > >joy!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. 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