At 01:17 PM 2/18/02, you wrote: >Michael: > >You've never struck me as somebody who doesn't participate in the system. >I've never thought of you as alienated.
Oh, I try to participate in the system but there's still things that I'll always be apart from. What you don't realize is that I was not religious till age 8 or so. I know all the things that I'm not part of. I know the looks and words I get when I wouln't go out to hooters or mcdonalds on a business trip to talk (just happened). I know the flack I'm going to get next week when i want to take a day for purim. There is a little piece of me that will always feel alienated because I live my life to a specific religious standard. It's my choice and I've accepted it but I still know its there. >I think I even said in my post that Jews suffer from bigotry in this >country. I think, largely, they are a fine example of a group of people >rising above bigotry. I don't think I've ever met a Jew who was openly >bigoted (amazing when you realize what an easy trap discrimination is to >fall into). Nor have I ever met a Jew who didn't feel they could fully >participate in the system (I'm confining my remarks to the US, of course). I could go on and on about the things that hold me back from working totally within the system but the point is rather moot. Most of them are of my own doing as I want to keep my religion and would have to sacrifice it to 'belong'. As for bigotry, it's so easy that people just don't look at it now-a-days. Its so easy to drive up so some one and say "hey hymee, where's this street." People don't realize that its a word used as a slur. But it doesn't have to stop there. Just a tone of voice can be enough to show your bigoted and as I've seen, people really don't care much. Like you said, its an easy trap. Again, I can go on and on with macro examples of bigotry as well as micro and personal ones, but the point is again moot. It does exist but is better than the alternative. That being expulsion, attacks, etc. And before anyone can say that those things don't happen in this day and age, all I have to say is crown heights. Even someone like me lives with some fear in our hearts. I'd say that's a good indicator of alienation. >H. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:53 AM >To: CF-Community >Subject: Alienated RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > >Have you ever walked down a public street and heard that you are living you > life wrong, your going to hell and only accepting someone else's idea of > something will save you? Have you ever lived in fear that people are going > to come and attack you, burn you out of house and home, kill you? Well, if > you have, then your a Jew. Not only that, but your a Jew in the most > Jew-friendly city in the US, NY. Alienated, oh yes we are. We live in fear > that the crown heights riot will happen again and all it takes is one > speech to touch it off. We live with Missionaries spending billions of > dollars to target us and our children (http://messiahtruth.com/). We live > in fear that if we don't try and fit in, we'll be left out. And when we do > try and fit in, we lose much of what we have that made us Jews. And even > then we're looked at as 'outsiders'. >To this day there are some blacks that fear race riots in some places but on > the whole they don't think they're going to be lynched. Not so with Jews. > There was once a time when a gay man was in fear of walking down the > street. These times still exist, but are going fast. Jews are still fearing > it after how many hundreds of years? >Yes, we're alienated. And this is just America. Look at France. Schools > being burned, people being attacked and the government saying, "oh it's not > anti-Semitic, it's just vandals" (http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=9891) . > Look at Brussels > (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4357776,00.html), look at > England > (http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old�ion=current&issue >=2002-02-16&id=1580), Italy (http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=8765), > look at the diplomatic front > (http://www.usajewish.com/scripts/usaj/paper/Article.asp?ArticleID=1364) . > >And this is not even going into Arab hate. We're alienated but because we're > Jews it's just not counted as the same. > >At 12:20 PM 2/18/02, you wrote: >>I disagree that all minorities are alienated. Jews are a minority in this >>country, but they are hardly alienated (at least not in the way I define > the >>term -- I mean, there is still bigotry in this country against Jews, but I >>don't think that has prevented them from participating in the system, or >>wanting to.) >> >>Within other minority communities, black, Hispanic, homosexual (to throw >>something in not based totally on race), there are pockets of both >>alienation and participation, so a blanket statement can't apply to them. >> >>Frankly, when I think of alienated voters, I think of mainly middle-class >>white kids who are used to having things handed to them, and since making >>change through the political system takes work, they find it easier to >>retreat into a "my vote doesn't count" attitude. >> >>H. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mark Smyth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:05 AM >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>Do you really think there will ever be a society which caters for all? >> >>In todays world there will always be minoritys, and they will always be >>alienated >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: 18 February 2002 17:03 >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>Fair point that we are talking about apples and pears maybe, but how is >>alienation a choice on the part of the alienated? >> >>The political system is failing poeple if they feel alienated from it. As >>for your comment about not wanting everyone to vote, particularly less >>educated poeple, I think that is a very very dangerous precedent to set for >>obvious reasons. >> >>will >> >>by the way, I am thoroughly enjoying this debate. Thanks. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: 18 February 2002 16:57 >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>Will Mugabe be elected in a free electoral system where every person >>qualified (based on a neutral qualification standard, such as age) is >>allowed to vote, to vote secretly, and choose between candidates of >>different opinions/stances/agendas? >> >>If we're going to compare elections, let's be sure we're comparing apples > to >>apples. >> >>As for America or Britain, alienation is a choice. A free choice. If people >>choose not to vote, that has no bearing on the legitimacy of the election. >>Hell, it enhances it. >> >>H. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:33 AM >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>I'm questioning the democractic nature of the US political system, and the >>British one while I'm at it. I didn't think democracy was the voice of > those >>who don't feel so alienated by politics that they vote? Winning is the >>mandate to rule you say? So when Mugabe wins that will be enough, he will >>have a mandate to rule? >> >>will >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: 18 February 2002 16:26 >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>Winning is the mandate to rule. In a representative government, that's all >>you need. >> >>Getting a majority of the votes (in a three-way election) is irrelevant. >>Getting a majority of all registered voters is even more irrelevant. >> >>I don't really get you're point, however. What does this have to do with >>democracies being careful? There is no democratic code that says all > people >>must vote. In fact, not voting is a form of voting. Furthermore, I don't >>want all people to vote. Too many people who are ill-informed vote already >>any way. Of course, that's their choice, but I don't believe democracy >>suffers when people choose not to vote. The nice thing about a free > society >>is that you can choose not to participate in the civic process if that's >>what floats your boat. People should be free to choose that option without >>being made out to be cretins. >> >>H. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:25 AM >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >>I see what you are saying but I do worry that there is a dangerous >>undercurrent lurking in the background there. Like maybe we could just ask >>them what they think about it? Otherwise it is simply a case of a dominant >>culture imposing it's values on everyone else. Yes, it might be from the >>best motivations, but I think you could see the arrogance there. >>Furthermore, I think you are on very dangerous ground with your assertion >>that "A government that is formed from a mandate from the masses (and not >>from some farcical aquatic ceremony) is the only way to go." Again, > imposing >>a morality and world view on others. Who is to say that a benevolent >>dictatorship is not a better way to live? >> >>Also, I think we who live in 'democratic' countries should be very careful. >>After all, is it not true that less than half the population of the US > voted >>in the last election, and arguably less than half of those who did actually >>voted for Bush? Hardly a mandate to rule? >> >>will >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>Sent: 15 February 2002 23:32 >>To: CF-Community >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee >> >> >> >> I will never accept the premise that "correct" and "right" are >>subjective. They are not. >> >> Killing is not necessarily wrong. Murder is wrong. Completely >>different. If killing is "wrong", then why do we hire "cops", give them >>badges and guns, and allow them to "kill" in our name? Why do we let the >>state "kill" in our name? Why do we let the US military "kill" in our >>name? There is no subjectiveness here. There is only absolute. >> >> I am not in anyway trying to suggest that we shove our western ideals >>down their throats. A government that is formed from a mandate from the >>masses (and not from some farcical aquatic ceremony) is the only way to >>go. That is absolute. However they choose to do it. >> >> Proper human behavior is right and just. No matter where you live. No >>matter what religion you follow. No matter your ethnic background. >> >> Would you suggest that the female castrations that go on in Africa, >>could in some way, be "right" or "correct" for those people? I don't >>care what kind of society they have, that is wrong. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: chris.alvarado [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 5:01 PM >>> To: CF-Community >>> Subject: Re: jihad for kids .. wheeee >>> >>> >>> no I'm suggesting exactly what I stated. >>> >>> Absolutes are absolutely wrong. >>> >>> case in point: >>> >>> Killing is wrong. >>> >>> Killing in self defense, is that wrong? >>> >>> most people would tend to say no, if the choice is kill or be killed, >>and >>> that is the only way, then killing in self defense is not "wrong", >>which >>> completely contradicts the first statement: 'killing is wrong'. >>Killing is >>> killing no matter how pretty you try to paint it. >>> >>> "right" and "wrong" is all a matter of perception. >>> >>> believing that something is right or wrong does not make it so. >>> >>> I believe that the events that occurred on 9/11 and some of the events >>> thereafter were "wrong" but that does not make it universally so. >>> >>> Who put you, or me for that matter in charge of dictating what is >>right or >>> wrong? >>> >>> Freedom is not just about living the way you want to live, it is >>> about being >>> able to also acknowledge the way others choose to live whether you >>agree >>> with it or not. >>> >>> Unconventional thought? perhaps, but this country's ideals were >>founded on >>> what was considered to be unconventional / 'unpopular' thinking. >>> >>> in short, what is right for you, may not be right for others, I'm >>> not saying >>> that about freedom or any one thing in particular. I'm saying, in >>general. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
