Michael, I have to learn how at age 8 you became religious? Is there a good story?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: RE: Alienated RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > At 01:17 PM 2/18/02, you wrote: > >Michael: > > > >You've never struck me as somebody who doesn't participate in the system. > >I've never thought of you as alienated. > > Oh, I try to participate in the system but there's still things that I'll > always be apart from. What you don't realize is that I was not religious > till age 8 or so. I know all the things that I'm not part of. I know the > looks and words I get when I wouln't go out to hooters or mcdonalds on a > business trip to talk (just happened). I know the flack I'm going to get > next week when i want to take a day for purim. There is a little piece of > me that will always feel alienated because I live my life to a specific > religious standard. It's my choice and I've accepted it but I still know > its there. > > >I think I even said in my post that Jews suffer from bigotry in this > >country. I think, largely, they are a fine example of a group of people > >rising above bigotry. I don't think I've ever met a Jew who was openly > >bigoted (amazing when you realize what an easy trap discrimination is to > >fall into). Nor have I ever met a Jew who didn't feel they could fully > >participate in the system (I'm confining my remarks to the US, of course). > I could go on and on about the things that hold me back from working totally > within the system but the point is rather moot. Most of them are of my own > doing as I want to keep my religion and would have to sacrifice it to > 'belong'. > As for bigotry, it's so easy that people just don't look at it now-a-days. > Its so easy to drive up so some one and say "hey hymee, where's this > street." People don't realize that its a word used as a slur. But it > doesn't have to stop there. Just a tone of voice can be enough to show your > bigoted and as I've seen, people really don't care much. Like you said, its > an easy trap. > Again, I can go on and on with macro examples of bigotry as well as micro > and personal ones, but the point is again moot. It does exist but is better > than the alternative. That being expulsion, attacks, etc. And before anyone > can say that those things don't happen in this day and age, all I have to > say is crown heights. > Even someone like me lives with some fear in our hearts. I'd say that's a > good indicator of alienation. > > >H. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:53 AM > >To: CF-Community > >Subject: Alienated RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > > > >Have you ever walked down a public street and heard that you are living you > > life wrong, your going to hell and only accepting someone else's idea of > > something will save you? Have you ever lived in fear that people are going > > to come and attack you, burn you out of house and home, kill you? Well, if > > you have, then your a Jew. Not only that, but your a Jew in the most > > Jew-friendly city in the US, NY. Alienated, oh yes we are. We live in fear > > that the crown heights riot will happen again and all it takes is one > > speech to touch it off. We live with Missionaries spending billions of > > dollars to target us and our children (http://messiahtruth.com/). We live > > in fear that if we don't try and fit in, we'll be left out. And when we do > > try and fit in, we lose much of what we have that made us Jews. And even > > then we're looked at as 'outsiders'. > >To this day there are some blacks that fear race riots in some places but > on > > the whole they don't think they're going to be lynched. Not so with Jews. > > There was once a time when a gay man was in fear of walking down the > > street. These times still exist, but are going fast. Jews are still > fearing > > it after how many hundreds of years? > >Yes, we're alienated. And this is just America. Look at France. Schools > > being burned, people being attacked and the government saying, "oh it's > not > > anti-Semitic, it's just vandals" (http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=9891) > . > > Look at Brussels > > (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4357776,00.html), look > at > > England > > (http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old�ion=current&issue > >=2002-02-16&id=1580), Italy (http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=8765), > > look at the diplomatic front > > (http://www.usajewish.com/scripts/usaj/paper/Article.asp?ArticleID=1364) > . > > > >And this is not even going into Arab hate. We're alienated but because > we're > > Jews it's just not counted as the same. > > > >At 12:20 PM 2/18/02, you wrote: > >>I disagree that all minorities are alienated. Jews are a minority in this > >>country, but they are hardly alienated (at least not in the way I define > > the > >>term -- I mean, there is still bigotry in this country against Jews, but I > >>don't think that has prevented them from participating in the system, or > >>wanting to.) > >> > >>Within other minority communities, black, Hispanic, homosexual (to throw > >>something in not based totally on race), there are pockets of both > >>alienation and participation, so a blanket statement can't apply to them. > >> > >>Frankly, when I think of alienated voters, I think of mainly middle-class > >>white kids who are used to having things handed to them, and since making > >>change through the political system takes work, they find it easier to > >>retreat into a "my vote doesn't count" attitude. > >> > >>H. > >> > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Mark Smyth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:05 AM > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>Do you really think there will ever be a society which caters for all? > >> > >>In todays world there will always be minoritys, and they will always be > >>alienated > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: 18 February 2002 17:03 > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>Fair point that we are talking about apples and pears maybe, but how is > >>alienation a choice on the part of the alienated? > >> > >>The political system is failing poeple if they feel alienated from it. As > >>for your comment about not wanting everyone to vote, particularly less > >>educated poeple, I think that is a very very dangerous precedent to set > for > >>obvious reasons. > >> > >>will > >> > >>by the way, I am thoroughly enjoying this debate. Thanks. > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: 18 February 2002 16:57 > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>Will Mugabe be elected in a free electoral system where every person > >>qualified (based on a neutral qualification standard, such as age) is > >>allowed to vote, to vote secretly, and choose between candidates of > >>different opinions/stances/agendas? > >> > >>If we're going to compare elections, let's be sure we're comparing apples > > to > >>apples. > >> > >>As for America or Britain, alienation is a choice. A free choice. If > people > >>choose not to vote, that has no bearing on the legitimacy of the election. > >>Hell, it enhances it. > >> > >>H. > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:33 AM > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>I'm questioning the democractic nature of the US political system, and the > >>British one while I'm at it. I didn't think democracy was the voice of > > those > >>who don't feel so alienated by politics that they vote? Winning is the > >>mandate to rule you say? So when Mugabe wins that will be enough, he will > >>have a mandate to rule? > >> > >>will > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: 18 February 2002 16:26 > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>Winning is the mandate to rule. In a representative government, that's > all > >>you need. > >> > >>Getting a majority of the votes (in a three-way election) is irrelevant. > >>Getting a majority of all registered voters is even more irrelevant. > >> > >>I don't really get you're point, however. What does this have to do with > >>democracies being careful? There is no democratic code that says all > > people > >>must vote. In fact, not voting is a form of voting. Furthermore, I don't > >>want all people to vote. Too many people who are ill-informed vote already > >>any way. Of course, that's their choice, but I don't believe democracy > >>suffers when people choose not to vote. The nice thing about a free > > society > >>is that you can choose not to participate in the civic process if that's > >>what floats your boat. People should be free to choose that option without > >>being made out to be cretins. > >> > >>H. > >> > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:25 AM > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >>I see what you are saying but I do worry that there is a dangerous > >>undercurrent lurking in the background there. Like maybe we could just ask > >>them what they think about it? Otherwise it is simply a case of a dominant > >>culture imposing it's values on everyone else. Yes, it might be from the > >>best motivations, but I think you could see the arrogance there. > >>Furthermore, I think you are on very dangerous ground with your assertion > >>that "A government that is formed from a mandate from the masses (and not > >>from some farcical aquatic ceremony) is the only way to go." Again, > > imposing > >>a morality and world view on others. Who is to say that a benevolent > >>dictatorship is not a better way to live? > >> > >>Also, I think we who live in 'democratic' countries should be very > careful. > >>After all, is it not true that less than half the population of the US > > voted > >>in the last election, and arguably less than half of those who did > actually > >>voted for Bush? Hardly a mandate to rule? > >> > >>will > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Lon Lentz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>Sent: 15 February 2002 23:32 > >>To: CF-Community > >>Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >> > >> > >> > >> I will never accept the premise that "correct" and "right" are > >>subjective. They are not. > >> > >> Killing is not necessarily wrong. Murder is wrong. Completely > >>different. If killing is "wrong", then why do we hire "cops", give them > >>badges and guns, and allow them to "kill" in our name? Why do we let the > >>state "kill" in our name? Why do we let the US military "kill" in our > >>name? There is no subjectiveness here. There is only absolute. > >> > >> I am not in anyway trying to suggest that we shove our western ideals > >>down their throats. A government that is formed from a mandate from the > >>masses (and not from some farcical aquatic ceremony) is the only way to > >>go. That is absolute. However they choose to do it. > >> > >> Proper human behavior is right and just. No matter where you live. No > >>matter what religion you follow. No matter your ethnic background. > >> > >> Would you suggest that the female castrations that go on in Africa, > >>could in some way, be "right" or "correct" for those people? I don't > >>care what kind of society they have, that is wrong. > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: chris.alvarado [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 5:01 PM > >>> To: CF-Community > >>> Subject: Re: jihad for kids .. wheeee > >>> > >>> > >>> no I'm suggesting exactly what I stated. > >>> > >>> Absolutes are absolutely wrong. > >>> > >>> case in point: > >>> > >>> Killing is wrong. > >>> > >>> Killing in self defense, is that wrong? > >>> > >>> most people would tend to say no, if the choice is kill or be killed, > >>and > >>> that is the only way, then killing in self defense is not "wrong", > >>which > >>> completely contradicts the first statement: 'killing is wrong'. > >>Killing is > >>> killing no matter how pretty you try to paint it. > >>> > >>> "right" and "wrong" is all a matter of perception. > >>> > >>> believing that something is right or wrong does not make it so. > >>> > >>> I believe that the events that occurred on 9/11 and some of the events > >>> thereafter were "wrong" but that does not make it universally so. > >>> > >>> Who put you, or me for that matter in charge of dictating what is > >>right or > >>> wrong? > >>> > >>> Freedom is not just about living the way you want to live, it is > >>> about being > >>> able to also acknowledge the way others choose to live whether you > >>agree > >>> with it or not. > >>> > >>> Unconventional thought? perhaps, but this country's ideals were > >>founded on > >>> what was considered to be unconventional / 'unpopular' thinking. > >>> > >>> in short, what is right for you, may not be right for others, I'm > >>> not saying > >>> that about freedom or any one thing in particular. I'm saying, in > >>general. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
