Well then, I guess that just shows how we need to be careful when communicating like this. It's very easy to misinterpret without other visual cues such as facial expression.....
I apologise if I misunderstood you Beth. will -----Original Message----- From: Beth Fleischer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 February 2002 21:58 To: CF-Community Subject: Re: jihad for kids .. wheeee Uh, did I post an angry message? I dont' think so - I simply asked you if the retribution and revenge couldn't possibly be the reason that the US attacked the taliban. Quite frankly, I think my post was gentle and rather amused, and I am curious to see what statement I made that made you think i "popped a blood vessel". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Swain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 7:53 AM Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > I appreciate all that Howard, really I do, but you must understand that your > principles (as a nation not an individual) are attacked because the US > imposes them on other nations. This is exactly what we have been discussing, > so our nice circular debate has ended up back here. Otherwise, why should I > even know what the US's principles are? > > And I will accept your point about criticism. Perhaps what I meant was that > since 11/9 americans are incredibly defensive about any suggestions that > afghanistan was not just about al queda and the taleban. Beth for example > almost burst a blood vessel at my suggestion that there could be other > motivations at work there on the part of the US. > > will > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 18 February 2002 16:47 > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > I almost cracked, why should we look at our faults when we have so many > people around the world willing to do it for us? <g> ... But seriously ... > > > We look at the wrongs of our own government all the time. What do you think > Watergate was all about? Or Iran-Contra? Why do you think we have a > campaign finance reform bill in Congress now (a lameass bill to be sure, but > at least it's an attempt to deal with our faults). > > There are also wide swaths of criticism from both the left and the right of > our foreign policy. > > There's a whole industry in this country of criticizing our government. > Walk into any American book store and you can fairly trip over books and > magazines critical of some aspect of the government. Turn on the TV any time > day or night and you are likely to find some one being critical of some > aspect of our government. > > The US is pretty much awash with criticism of it's policies and its systems. > > I don't have a problem with people, even people outside the US, criticizing > our government. But I will take up arms (metaphorically speaking) when > people level attacks I don't agree with (I reserve the right to defend my > country) and when people attack our principles (not that we do a perfect job > of living up to our principles). > > H. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:02 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > you cannot deal with an event, any event, in a vaccuum. They don't exist in > vaccuums. I think many of the wrongs are more real than imagined. > > Whjat i find amazing, and hard to understand, is the inability of many > americans to look critically at the own government. I will happily admit to > any number of real wrongs done by my government to verious peoples around > the world. Its not a personal attack on me. Why is it that americans in > general take this so personally? > > will > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 18 February 2002 15:56 > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > Yes, it all starts with Sept. 11, because there can be no justification for > Sept. 11. To even mention wrongs real or imagined (and they are mostly > imagined) prior to Sept. 11 is to give justification to the attacks. That > just isn't morally defensible. > > H. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 7:32 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > what, it all starts on sept 11th and nothing that happenned previously has > any relation at all? > > no, i don't think the killing of thousands of innocent people is justified. > BY ANYONE. ON ANYONE. In terms of body count, I think the US may well be > winning. > > will > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 18 February 2002 15:25 > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > How is that a problem? In this issue, that's all that matters. > > Unless you think Sept. 11 was justified? > > H. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:51 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > problem is howard, your analysis starts with sept 11th, not before. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 18 February 2002 01:09 > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > Fact: On Sept. 11, thousands of people were killed when two planes slammed > into the WTC Twin Towers. > > Fact: Those planes were flown by terrorists who were part of a terrorist > network run by Bin Laden. > > Fact: Those terrorists were trained in Afghanistan. > > Fact: Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan. > > Fact: The Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden and were openly supportive > of the attacks. > > You can believe it's all about oil if you like, but the facts argue > otherwise. If it turns out the UNOCAL is able to build an oil pipeline > through Afghanistan now, that's just a happy coincidence that may or may not > have occurred to GWB. It will certainly be good for a country that needs a > little income right about now. > > Fact: Saddam Hussein is bent on developing weapons of mass destruction. > > Fact: Saddam Hussein wants to destroy American interests and Israel. > > Fact: Saddam Hussein funds and supports terrorism. > > You can believe all you want that it's all about oil, but the facts tell a > different story. Sure, there are side benefits to overthrowing Hussein, such > bring Iraq's oil back on to the market. Besides, potentially, bringing down > the price of oil, it would give the US leverage against Saudi Arabia, a > country increasingly viewed as more of an enemy than a friend (and > rightfully so). > > I never said I believed in the altruism of the US government (weren't you > the one complaining about being misconstrued and misquoted?). There is no > doubt we largely act in our own self interest. In many cases, I don't see a > problem with this. What I have said is that our policy must change after > Sept. 11. We must do more to further the ideals we believe in. I gather > those ideals mean nothing to you, since you've never, that I can recall, > have ever said a word in support of freedom and justice. My impression, and > maybe my memory is faulty, so please refute this if I am wrong, is that you > would rather bitch and moan about how horrible the US is as if you secretly > root for its downfall. > > H. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Angel Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 4:50 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee > > > *sigh* > > Well that's not what I meant. > > ["How would the United States have gotten worldwide sympathy and support > for a move like that otherwise? > > How would they get worldwide support to oust Saddam Hussein so long > after Desert Storm unless under the asupices of the "War On Terror"? > > How could Ashcroft, Lieberman and their cronies say that "Americans must > finally realise that their freedoms need to be restricted after the > events of September 11th..." with impunity and finally pass laws that > were struck down repeatedly when they came up for review in the past if > not under the umbrella of new "Homeland Security"?] > > There is a side to this whole thing that is simply politicians taking > advantage of the oppurtunities presented by September 11th. > > Oh..and to educate you a little further on how Afghanistan relates to > oil, check this link: > > http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/afghan.html > > "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its > geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural > gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea. This potential > includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export > pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious consideration in > the mid-1990s. The idea has since been undermined by Afghanistan's > instability. Since 1996, most of Afghanistan has been controlled by the > Taliban movement, which the United States does not recognize as the > government of Afghanistan. " > > But forget about all that..*gestures*...keep believing in the altruism > of the United States and its government. > Sooner or later the truth, which may be good or bad depending on which > side of the fence you're sitting on, will hit you in the face. Maybe > when you get jailed for vaguely resembling John Walker whilst trying to > get onboard a plane. > *smirk* > > *yawn* > G'night. > > -Gel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Since Afghanistan has no oil reserves, how could this even have played a > factor? > > Unless you care to retract your defense of Will's original statement, > which Beth criticized, and you criticized Beth's criticism, I don't > believe that you can logically accuse me of misunderstanding or > misconstruing what you said. It's pretty darn clear what you said. > > H. > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
