Hey, as some one who has viciously and unfairly attacked Beth previously, let me come to her defense once again!!!
I didn't take Beth's words as strongly as you did, which is what I tried to point out. It was a fairly straight forward question along the lines of if we're attacked, shouldn't we respond? (Sorry, Beth, for not looking up your exact words). The tricky part of this debate is defining the word "impose" and "values." By impose, and outside of some specific countries, I don't think I said impose, but be that as it may -- I mean promote. There may be times when military action is justified, whether we have other self interests or not (and most likely we always will, just because we're so big we got so many interests around the world), but I've also said many times we should use diplomacy and propaganda. I don't expect other countries to be mirror images of the US. But I do think it is fair to hope, and ask my government to promote the idea, that some day all countries will allow their citizens real freedom. As for values, what I mean by values are fairly simple -- freedom, the rule of law, economic self-determination. In none of those words do I think you can fairly read into them "Americanization," which is what I think a lot of people mean when they talked about "America imposing its values." On one hand, I can understand a country resisting Hollywood, but trying to keep Hollywood at bay is not excuse for prohibiting freedom. Also, I'm not saying other countries need to define murder as we define it or establish (or de-establish) capitol punishment. These are local issues for people to decide for themselves, assuming they have the ability to make that decision for themselves and have the government reflect their will. H. -----Original Message----- From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:54 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee I appreciate all that Howard, really I do, but you must understand that your principles (as a nation not an individual) are attacked because the US imposes them on other nations. This is exactly what we have been discussing, so our nice circular debate has ended up back here. Otherwise, why should I even know what the US's principles are? And I will accept your point about criticism. Perhaps what I meant was that since 11/9 americans are incredibly defensive about any suggestions that afghanistan was not just about al queda and the taleban. Beth for example almost burst a blood vessel at my suggestion that there could be other motivations at work there on the part of the US. will -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 February 2002 16:47 To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee I almost cracked, why should we look at our faults when we have so many people around the world willing to do it for us? <g> ... But seriously ... We look at the wrongs of our own government all the time. What do you think Watergate was all about? Or Iran-Contra? Why do you think we have a campaign finance reform bill in Congress now (a lameass bill to be sure, but at least it's an attempt to deal with our faults). There are also wide swaths of criticism from both the left and the right of our foreign policy. There's a whole industry in this country of criticizing our government. Walk into any American book store and you can fairly trip over books and magazines critical of some aspect of the government. Turn on the TV any time day or night and you are likely to find some one being critical of some aspect of our government. The US is pretty much awash with criticism of it's policies and its systems. I don't have a problem with people, even people outside the US, criticizing our government. But I will take up arms (metaphorically speaking) when people level attacks I don't agree with (I reserve the right to defend my country) and when people attack our principles (not that we do a perfect job of living up to our principles). H. -----Original Message----- From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 8:02 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee you cannot deal with an event, any event, in a vaccuum. They don't exist in vaccuums. I think many of the wrongs are more real than imagined. Whjat i find amazing, and hard to understand, is the inability of many americans to look critically at the own government. I will happily admit to any number of real wrongs done by my government to verious peoples around the world. Its not a personal attack on me. Why is it that americans in general take this so personally? will -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 February 2002 15:56 To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee Yes, it all starts with Sept. 11, because there can be no justification for Sept. 11. To even mention wrongs real or imagined (and they are mostly imagined) prior to Sept. 11 is to give justification to the attacks. That just isn't morally defensible. H. -----Original Message----- From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 7:32 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee what, it all starts on sept 11th and nothing that happenned previously has any relation at all? no, i don't think the killing of thousands of innocent people is justified. BY ANYONE. ON ANYONE. In terms of body count, I think the US may well be winning. will -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 February 2002 15:25 To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee How is that a problem? In this issue, that's all that matters. Unless you think Sept. 11 was justified? H. -----Original Message----- From: Will Swain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:51 AM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee problem is howard, your analysis starts with sept 11th, not before. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 February 2002 01:09 To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee Fact: On Sept. 11, thousands of people were killed when two planes slammed into the WTC Twin Towers. Fact: Those planes were flown by terrorists who were part of a terrorist network run by Bin Laden. Fact: Those terrorists were trained in Afghanistan. Fact: Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan. Fact: The Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden and were openly supportive of the attacks. You can believe it's all about oil if you like, but the facts argue otherwise. If it turns out the UNOCAL is able to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan now, that's just a happy coincidence that may or may not have occurred to GWB. It will certainly be good for a country that needs a little income right about now. Fact: Saddam Hussein is bent on developing weapons of mass destruction. Fact: Saddam Hussein wants to destroy American interests and Israel. Fact: Saddam Hussein funds and supports terrorism. You can believe all you want that it's all about oil, but the facts tell a different story. Sure, there are side benefits to overthrowing Hussein, such bring Iraq's oil back on to the market. Besides, potentially, bringing down the price of oil, it would give the US leverage against Saudi Arabia, a country increasingly viewed as more of an enemy than a friend (and rightfully so). I never said I believed in the altruism of the US government (weren't you the one complaining about being misconstrued and misquoted?). There is no doubt we largely act in our own self interest. In many cases, I don't see a problem with this. What I have said is that our policy must change after Sept. 11. We must do more to further the ideals we believe in. I gather those ideals mean nothing to you, since you've never, that I can recall, have ever said a word in support of freedom and justice. My impression, and maybe my memory is faulty, so please refute this if I am wrong, is that you would rather bitch and moan about how horrible the US is as if you secretly root for its downfall. H. -----Original Message----- From: Angel Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 4:50 PM To: CF-Community Subject: RE: jihad for kids .. wheeee *sigh* Well that's not what I meant. ["How would the United States have gotten worldwide sympathy and support for a move like that otherwise? How would they get worldwide support to oust Saddam Hussein so long after Desert Storm unless under the asupices of the "War On Terror"? How could Ashcroft, Lieberman and their cronies say that "Americans must finally realise that their freedoms need to be restricted after the events of September 11th..." with impunity and finally pass laws that were struck down repeatedly when they came up for review in the past if not under the umbrella of new "Homeland Security"?] There is a side to this whole thing that is simply politicians taking advantage of the oppurtunities presented by September 11th. Oh..and to educate you a little further on how Afghanistan relates to oil, check this link: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/afghan.html "Afghanistan's significance from an energy standpoint stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea. This potential includes the possible construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan, which was under serious consideration in the mid-1990s. The idea has since been undermined by Afghanistan's instability. Since 1996, most of Afghanistan has been controlled by the Taliban movement, which the United States does not recognize as the government of Afghanistan. " But forget about all that..*gestures*...keep believing in the altruism of the United States and its government. Sooner or later the truth, which may be good or bad depending on which side of the fence you're sitting on, will hit you in the face. Maybe when you get jailed for vaguely resembling John Walker whilst trying to get onboard a plane. *smirk* *yawn* G'night. -Gel -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Since Afghanistan has no oil reserves, how could this even have played a factor? Unless you care to retract your defense of Will's original statement, which Beth criticized, and you criticized Beth's criticism, I don't believe that you can logically accuse me of misunderstanding or misconstruing what you said. It's pretty darn clear what you said. H. ______________________________________________________________________ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
