On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Robert Munn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Judah wrote: > >> All taxes are a redistribution of wealth. It is stupid to pretend >> otherwise. But it is the price of living in a civilization. >> > > That is not true. If I pay taxes to build a bridge, I can drive over that > bridge, so I benefit from my tax dollars. That is where tax dollars should > be used- to provide resources for the common good. If I pay taxes so some > slacker kid can have an extra twenty bucks to spend at the liquor store on > the weekend, I don't benefit from that use at all. I'm fine with the kid > getting his drink on, that's all good. I just don't feel like having him do > it on my dime.
First off, this is two emails in a row denigrating poor kids. WTF? Why the hate? I saw the same thing with welfare reform. "All the money is going to irresponsible young black mothers who want to do crack and not work!". Do you really think that sort of thing? Do you honestly believe that the bulk of the people making $20,000 a year are doing it because they are lazy and stupid and just don't want anything out of life? If so, I feel very sad for you, because that's not how it is. Poor people are not just hanging out, rubbing their hands together while maniacally waiting for their plan to cheat you out of your money to come to fruition and all their time spent in a shitty cold apartment will be paid off by not having to work because the Democrats gave them all your money. Secondly, you obviously have a rather provincial understanding of the common good. Yes, you pay taxes for a bridge that you can drive over. But you also pay taxes for a school that hopefully will produce an educated workforce that will help fund your Social Security checks should your stock market investments tank. Its not just about what you can see and feel in your own little world right in front of you. > > Taxes are a disincentive to work, but you have to look at comparative > incentives/disincentives to understand why it matters. California is a very > high tax state. A lot of people move out of California to places like > Florida and New Hampshire because of the tax burden in California. > That would surely explain the lack of job creation engines in California, like Silicon Valley. You don't get it, do you? Taxes is certainly a factor to consider when choosing to locate your family/business in a place. But it isn't nearly at the top, not even close. Things like infrastructure, markets, an educated workforce and quality of life far outweigh taxes. > The issue at the Federal level is only really egregious when you levee > punitive taxes on one group and not everyone. Taxing people who make an > arbitrary amount of money at a higher rate than everyone else just > encourages those people to find ways to dodge the system, defer their > income, or simply earn less money. No, they don't. Most people try to dodge the system no matter what. If you can find a way to be "creative" on your tax forms, most people will. As for people that choose to "earn less money", I can't say that I've met many. I have met a couple actually, but that had nothing to do with taxes. They voluntarily decided to simplify their lives, cut work out of it as much as possible and get out of the rat race period. There is an unspoken bit here though in your argument, I think. The argument is that those people that make more money do so because they work more, because they work harder. And that's not true. I work my butt off 40 to 60 hours a week (when not checking cf-community obviously). I did that when I was making $30K a year out of college, I'd be doing the same as a senior programmer at $100K a year. CEO's don't make $5 million a year because they work 100 times harder than a guy making $50K. The CEO's skills may be more specialized, but that CEO is going to be expected to work as hard at a job that pays him $100K as he is at $5 million. > >> You don't get to just say "it's my money" like it magically appeared >> in your pocket without any influence from anything else in the world. > > > Exactly. I am the beneficiary of a system of government and commerce > envisioned by our Founding Fathers, who generally believed that the result > of a man's labor should belong to him, not to the state. Of course, we pay > for clean water, roads, schools, and all the other elements of the common > good. So where are the limits of the common good? Should I have to pay > thousands of dollars a year to a system of entitlements from which I know I > will never see a nickel? Is that the common good? Sure doesn't sound like it > to me. It sounds like I'm being bent over a table and screwed. Yes you should. And if that sounds like being bent over a table and screwed (which actually sounds like a lot of fun to me, but I digress...) then I'm sorry you think that way. Somebody's taxes went to the welfare to work training program that my mother was in. As a result of that job, she was able to get off of welfare and get in a job that she loved, even though it paid for shit and trashed her body. As a result of that job, we were able to settle down in one place, even own a home for a bit and I was able to get a stable education (once again, paid for by taxes) and do well enough to go to a good school and take out loans (partly subsidized by taxes) and get a degree that has since that time put me in a position of paying for the roads you drive on, the bridges you cross and the clean water you drink. That's how investing in society works. > A friend of mine who was fortunate to have been successful in his career > just started receiving Social Security. He told me that, at current payout > rates, it would take him 50 years to be paid out just on the money he paid > into the system. Now granted, payout rates will rise, but if he had been > able to invest that money instead of having it seized by the government, he > would have substantially more money today, and he would be free to do with > it as he pleased. Once again, you neglect to understand how he came to be in the position he is in. He's not just fortunate to have been successful in his career. He is fortunate to have been in the position where he could become successful in his career. All the investment in the fabric of our society, not just roads and sewers, but also education, home ownership, economic stability...all of these things help create an environment that allows us to succeed, to create jobs, to become a better educated society and to grow as a people. That matters. > And oh yes, the patriotism argument. Let's see how this works.According to > you, I should pay until I bleed, whatever the government wants, and be > thankful for the right to do so. How much should I pay? 10% more? 20% more? > How much is too much? Who decides? The government? Why yes, you've got that exactly right. What happened to the sense of pride people had in growing Victory Gardens in WWII? Of tightening belts to deal with rationing? For the good of the country? I want you to be able to go out and earn $5 million a year Robert. And I don't begrudge Warren Buffett his 8 Billion that he's come through with this year. But if you make $5 million in a year, then yes, I will ask you to give $100K towards making our country better and helping create the situation where 5 more people in the next generation can make $5 million a year. As to who decides, yes, the government. That is, in fact, what its there for. And that is why we have elections and why you have elected representatives. > In Obama's mind, if the group of people you want to punish is small enough, > that makes it OK. Alexis de Tocqueville had a name for that kind of > thinking. He called it the tyranny of the majority. LOL. Seriously, that made me laugh. I don't think we really have to worry about those billionaires too much Robert. Its good of you to worry about them so. They seem so cute and defenseless. But I assure you, the titans of industry will be able to stand up for themselves. Judah ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;207172674;29440083;f Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/message.cfm/messageid:274748 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
