enough to drive you 6 feet under. larry
-- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 fax: (703) 393-2659 Web: http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- > -----Original Message----- > From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:16 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > Larry- > > yes, it is too deep for me! > :-) > > -Ben > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 10:16 AM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > Sorry, I just cannot fathom this. > > > > I guess the topic is a bit too deep for you Ben? > > > > (ducking and running) > > > > larry > > > > -- > > Larry C. Lyons > > ColdFusion/Web Developer > > Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer > > EBStor.com > > 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 204 > > Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 > > tel: (703) 393-7930 > > fax: (703) 393-2659 > > Web: http://www.ebstor.com > > http://www.pacel.com > > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. > > -- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:05 PM > > > To: CF-Community > > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > I hope this comment does not offend anyone. > > > Apologies if it does. > > > (It probably will.) > > > > > > But the whole "second coming" belief in Christianity sounds > > > to me like it > > > didn't work right the first time, so stay tuned for the > > > sequel, it will work > > > then. > > > > > > I'm sorry, to me God is just God. Period. There are prophets, > > > there are holy > > > persons worthy of great reverence. But to deify them goes > > > completely against > > > my belief in monotheism. > > > > > > This is especially true re: Catholics. When my son was 6 > > years old, he > > > pointed to a statue of Jesus in somebody's car and said he > > > thought that was > > > idolatry and violated the commandment about graven images. > > > And praying to > > > the Virgin Mary and Saints strikes me as polytheism. > > > > > > Sorry, I just cannot fathom this. > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:19 PM > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > > > > The messiah has to do certain things. If he does not then his > > > > claim to be the messiah is a false one (according to the > > > > Jewish tradition). There is no claim anywhere about multiple > > > > life times to do the job. If so, then I am the messiah. I > > > > just haven't proven it yet by bringing world peace. > > > > The greatest Rabbis of history for the last 2000 years has > > > > rejected the claim of Jesus as the Jewish messiah. If you > > > > wish to believe that he was, is and will be the messiah then > > > > it is fine and good. I'm not going to say your wrong FOR YOU. > > > > But it is wrong for me because it has not fallen into the > > > > rules that I, as a Jew, know to be required in the Torah. > > > > This is why you are not a Jew but are instead a Christian. No > > > > judgment on your choice or beliefs but a judgment on mine. > > > > > > > > > Judith, in all respect, please permit my opinion ... > > > > > > > > > > What I'm saying is that it's a weak argument to say, "Jesus > > > > is not the > > > > > Messiah because he hasn't brought world peace." It's like > > > > a 12th Century > > > > > cleric saying the earth doesn't revolve around the sun > > > > because it hasn't > > > > > been proven that the earth revolves around the sun. > > > > Whether Jesus will > > > > > fulfill the particular question of world peace (as > > > > prophesized) is still an > > > > > open question, so you can't say (logically) that he's not > > > > the messiah > > > > > because that particular prophecy remains unfulfilled. > > > > There is nothing in > > > > > the OT (the Torah) that says the prophecies must be > > > > fulfilled in a specific > > > > > order or specific time line. > > > > > > > > > > You may have a number of very sound reasons for not > > > > believing the Jesus is > > > > > the Messiah, and that's fine, but I wanted to point out > > > > that this isn't one > > > > > of them. > > > > > > > > > > H. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:30 PM > > > > > To: CF-Community > > > > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Howard, that's what makes me a Jew and you a > Christian. <g> > > > > > > > > > > Judith > > > > > > > > > > >Jesus Christ has not brought world peace YET! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > > >From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > >Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:03 PM > > > > > >To: CF-Community > > > > > >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Russel -- > > > > > > > > > > > >It's not a condemnation. One of the core beliefs of > > > > Judaism is in the > > > > > >coming of the Messiah. But by the definition of that > > > > belief, the Messiah > > > > > >has not yet come. For the Messiah to come, he has to > > > > fulfill certain > > > > > >requirements (a major example of these requirements: The > > > > Messiah has to > > > > > >bring world peace.) Jesus didn't fulfill those > > > > requirements. Therefore, > > > > > >Judaism does not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the > > > savior of > > > > > >humanity, or the son of G-d. > > > > > > > > > > > >So one cannot claim to be following Judaism while > > > > believing in Jesus the > > > > > >way a Christian believes in Jesus. > > > > > > > > > > > >This is what "Messianic Jews" claim. But this claim is > > > > based on a major > > > > > >misunderstanding of Judaism. > > > > > > > > > > > >You'll note that Michael and Ben, who are from two very > > > > different Jewish > > > > > >groups, both agree that Messianic Jews are not following > > > > Judaism. This > > > > > >should tell you something. > > > > > > > > > > > >NOTE: I did not say that Messianic Jews could not be born > > > > Jewish. But they > > > > > >are being sold a bill of goods if they think they are > > > > following Judaism. > > > > > >Maybe they are doing some Jewish practices -- but > > > > believing in Jesus as the > > > > > >Messiah or as anything other than a human being is > > > > directly against a core > > > > > >tenet of Judaism. > > > > > > > > > > > >Judith > > > > > > > > > > > > >So let me ask you this. Because I. as a Catholic, > > > > believe that Christ is > > > > > > >present in the Eucharist when I receive It every Sunday. > > > > Baptist do not > > > > > > >share that CORE, 2000 year old tenet of my faith. Does > > > > that mean to you > > > > > I, > > > > > > >as a Catholic, and someone else, as a Baptist, cannot > > > > both claim to be > > > > > > >Christian? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Personally, I feel that those calling themselves > > > > Messianic Jews are > > > > > really > > > > > > >archaic Christians. A living, religious fossil, so to > > > > speak. I just > > > > > > >resented the immediate condemnation of them as not being > > > > Jewish in any > > > > > way. > > > > > > >The Early Chrisitian Church celebrated in synagogs and > > > > worshipped in the > > > > > > >Temple. They maintained much of thier Jewish identity, > > > > even after the > > > > > > >Gentiles were admitted to the Church. If it were not > > > > for the Roman > > > > > > >persecutions, we probably would still be worshipping > > that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >===== > > > > > > >Russel Madere > > > > > > >Senior Software Engineer > > > > > > >Turbo Squid, Inc. > > > > > > >http://www.turbosquid.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
