You must _really_ hate Star Trek. The concept of a future where there is no
hunger, no poverty, no money, where people just try to help each other.

-Kevin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:30 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Liberate Iraq -- Even With Unclean Hands
>
>
> Again with the d word :)
>
> When I speak of socialists being incompatible with out intended form of
> government I don't only mean the revolutionary ideals implied in
> marxist/lennonist/maoist socialism.  I am speaking about many
> ideals shared
> by the common American socialist, what we refer to as leftist or
> liberal.  I
> think that when you look at ideas like socialized health care, welfare,
> intrusive government policies pertaining to industry and commerce, and
> government ownership of large parts of what should be commercial
> interests,
> you are directly in opposition of what this country was supposed to be
> about.
>
> I am responsible only to myself to that extent that I do not interfere in
> others free expression of their rights.  I think that statement
> pretty much
> sums up my political philosophy. Obviously there are areas where that
> explanations is insufficient.  I have chosen to take a wife and have
> children, so I have a responsibility there, but it was a choice.
> I decided
> that I WANTED to serve, and as such I have military obligations.
> In both of
> these cases I opted to pursue that course.  I don't think it's
> right that I
> ever be responsible for another person or for any responsibility that I do
> not decide to take upon myself.
>
> I think this shows in so many different aspects of politics.  We are
> required to pay for other people to live, eat, and be educated.
> It's almost
> a right in this nation to have medical care and housing and
> belongings, even
> if you do not choose to work, to produce, to pay for the services you
> receive.
>
> Maybe I am slow because it's Friday.  I don't feel like I am expressing my
> point very well.
>
> I think in economics, and in politics I believe in a Darwinian model.  I
> think a person will naturally rise to the level of their ability.  However
> if you make it easy for people to be lazy many will do just that.
>  They will
> milk the system.  Eventually you taint the system so that these with the
> ability are no longer willing to produce for those without.  They
> go to the
> black market, or work simply at a sustenance level, or worse they
> will cave
> and take advantage of the system.
>
> Anyway back to my grind :)
>
> Timothy Heald
> Overseas Security Advisory Council
> U.S. Department of State
>
> "that the free Constitution, which is the work of your hands, may be
> sacredly maintained" - George Washington, Farewell Address 1796
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Lyons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:02 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: RE: Liberate Iraq -- Even With Unclean Hands
>
>
> While I've no real experience in political science, I think you're missing
> something here Tim. There are actually two types of socialism, one as you
> said is based on Marxist philosophy. The other type is based on
> classic 19th
> century Fabian Socialism, whose modern descendents are the British Labour
> Party, as well as similar political parties in Europe, Australia
> and Canada
> for instance. This system is based on classic parliamentary approaches to
> change, not revolutionary. There is nothing incompatible with that sort of
> socialism and the democratic process.
>
> larry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:03 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: RE: Liberate Iraq -- Even With Unclean Hands
> >
> >
> > Socialism, based on Marx, advocates revolution and violence.  It's
> > principals are mutually exclusive.  The republic envisioned in our
> > constitution and bill of rights, in the constitutions and
> > charters of many
> > state, is incompatible with many of it's guiding ideals.  I
> > am not agreeing
> > that we should deport socialists, just realize that their
> > world view does
> > not and should not matter in our political process, should we
> > wish to stay
> > true to the intent, the spirit of liberty that this country manifests.
> >
> > The sovereign individual, not the community or the society,
> > is the highest
> > member of our republic.  Self interest over group interest.
> >
> > I also realize that we are no longer that republic.  That for
> > the most part
> > we are all ready living in a socialist country/.
> >
> > Also I think I may know what he means when he speaks of socialist
> > protestors.  There are many groups at the forefront of the
> > anti-war movement
> > in the U.S.  One of the largest and most vocal is a group
> > called ANSWER.
> > They have been very popular here in DC lately.  The only
> > thing is that most
> > people don't know they are run by the world workers party.  The world
> > workers party is one of the communist parties in the US.
> > This group goes
> > around saying that they are run of the mill average people
> > standing up and
> > speaking out against war.  In reality their world view is
> > very different
> > than your average American's.  They are also not against all
> > war.  They look
> > to North Korea and Cuba as havens of brotherly love.  They support
> > terrorists (this is a act, one of the guys that they had speak was a
> > Palestinian who had been in and out of prison in Israel).
> > They are not the
> > peace loving gentle people you would assume.
> >
> > Timothy Heald
> > Overseas Security Advisory Council
> > U.S. Department of State
> >
> > "that the free Constitution, which is the work of your hands, may be
> > sacredly maintained" - George Washington, Farewell Address 1796
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 4:51 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: RE: Liberate Iraq -- Even With Unclean Hands
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: samcfug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 2:39 AM
> > > To: CF-Community
> > > Subject: Liberate Iraq -- Even With Unclean Hands
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting that all of these so-called anti-war cowards
> > > universally leave out and ignore the murders of innocent
> > > civilians by the thousands by this despot. This continues
> > > even today. We treat their POWs humanely, and they have
> > > murdered (executed) all but one of the POWs they took. There
> > > are no arguments that can be considered valid that try to
> > > place blame on the US. It is fact that the French, Germans,
> > > and Russians oppose up but it is all economic in nature.  I
> > > hope our congress remembers this when passing foreign aid
> > > legislation. Of course we will reimburse ourselves with
> > > revenues from Iraqi Oil.  We should also export all these
> > > socialist protesters as well.
> >
> > You comments honestly offend me as an American.  "export all these
> > socialist protesters"?  So we should slap the ideals of this
> > country in
> > the face by renouncing the fundamental freedom to disagree with our
> > government's actions?  In fact punishing those that do?
> >
> > Who else would be "exported" (nice, sanitized word there by the way)?
> > What other group's expressions of free speech annoy you?
> >
> > Being anti-war has never been synonymous with "coward".  I see a great
> > bravery in those willing to express their disatisfaction
> > against public
> > opinion.  Regardless of whether I agree with them or not I feel proud
> > when I see protesters.  Proud that this country protects that
> > right and
> > pround that my fellow Americans are still strong enough to
> > exercise it.
> >
> > Jim Davis
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
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