I hold myself to the same standards I hold others. At lunch today a friend got a fortune that had the golden rule, do unto others..... His comment, very appropriate I thought, was prepare to judge and be judged.
I do not feel that altruism is impossible. Self-sacrifice has been preached and practiced on this planet as long as there has been organized religion. While there may be buried ulterior motives involved, for all purposes the act is real and takes precedence over the hidden motive. Ok, Egoist, yes, now why this should make me a relativist is beyond me. Is it most common, sure, to those that are completely blind to their egoism, the conceited and so forth. However for those that are self aware, the self-interest is their primary motivation, and they expect the same of others, not expect to step on others, these people expect to truly be treated in the same manner that they treat others. This doesn't mean that I will sacrifice for you, it means I will expect you to do what's in your self interest. Mill's and Bentham's writing on utilitarianism claim that when you work for yourself and your own happiness, your truly working for "society" or the community. I disagree however. I think that in many ways (guns, drugs, property laws and so on) that what is good for a society is not always what is good for the individual. As an individualist vs. a collectivist, I say that the individual, your means of production and innovation, this is the motive force in society, and as such should be paramount. I claim only one philosophy, objectivist. The theory that the objective reality is the only reality. That we must deal with that reality on it's own terms or it will defeat us. I will not use mysticism in anyway to make an argument, or to claim something from another person, this has been one of the major causes of death and destruction in our history. I refuse to use guilt or "love" or family in order to make another individual do that which is not in their own interest. You cannot live a lie, or you will eventually be called to task. Do not mistake my service as altruism, it certainly was no such thing. It was my responsibility, as others do it for my family, I had to take my turn doing it for others. This was self interest. I understand the idea of "enlightened self-interest". It disgust me if the truth be told. I have heard the very argument here. Wouldn't it be better to give the family welfare than to have them in the street, stealing. I say no. It would be better if they were punished to the full extent for their crimes the first time. It would be better if people were responsible for their actions. Each of us makes decisions in life, some good some bad. At some point that welfare mother, or strung out junkie, made choices to put themselves in their current predicament. I think we are being soft, we are not dealing with reality, when we soften the blow that they are sure to receive. I know I have gone far afield of the original conversation, but there are some many different issues contained in the words you used. These individual words are used to sum up philosophies that people have been discussing and debating for thousands of years now. I am surprised that you are truly an egoist, yet are a democrat, or at least come across liberal at times (I may be getting confused, I think Dana and Larry are the only ones that I really have pegged at this point.). I would assume that someone who was truly self interested would be an individualist, and a universalist. One guiding moral reality for all people making your life better. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Graeme [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 1:40 PM To: CF-Community Subject: Altruism (was RE: US threatens Caribbean Countries) No it's not. Altruism vs. Egoism is an ongoing debate in philosophy with most modern ethicists that I've read giving the nod to Egoism. Tomas Hobbes in the early 17th Century basically said that Altruism doesn't exist. "For Hobbes, we all participate in a social contract to bring society into existence for the benefits thereof. This is a thoroughly egoistic enterprise. Hobbes would not claim that social protections make altruism possible because altruism is never possible. (Hobbes here on the Golden Rule!). What looks like altruism and benevolence is always, in one way or another, disguised self-interest. When that self-interest breaks into the open, the result is total social war. The fear of such war leads to doing things for others from purely self-interested motives. (The example of the beggar and the clergyman.) This story reduces the problem of the relationship of altruism and egoism to a single issue: if human nature is essentially self-interested and competitive, how can altruism and benevolence be considered virtues?" http://www.siue.edu/~whamric/Hobbes.html Plenty of others have provided varying perspectives on the ebb and flow of apparently altruistic motivations in people, but most generally come down on the side of altruism being a false presumption. I wouldn't call Altruism evil, because I personally don't feel that it even exists. Tim, as someone who served in the military, was willing to die for others but that doesn't mean that it was an altruistic motivation. What I personally find interesting is that while Egosim usually goes hand in hand with Relativism, or at least Utilitarianism, Tim seems comfortable with Universalist principles for society while holding an Egoist stance for himself. (That's not a criticism Tim, just an observation.) -Kevin > -----Original Message----- > From: Dana Tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:54 AM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: US threatens Caribbean Countries > > > I think that speaks for itself. It's right up there with > "let's invade Iraq because they play with goat heads in Pakistan." > > Dana > > Heald, Tim writes: > > > Altruism is evil. > > > > Timothy Heald > > Information Systems Specialist > > Overseas Security Advisory Council > > U.S. Department of State > > 571.345.2235 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Angel Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:20 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: US threatens Caribbean Countries > > > > > > *GASP!* > > > > You...you mean the US isn't the altruistic..benevolent world ruler > > that it makes itself out to be? > > > > You mean...you mean if it isn't in the US 'National Interest' then > > nothing will be done regardless of how many innocent people are > > slaughtered or if there is systematic genocide taking place?? > > > > 0_0 > > > > Oh I can feel my little America The Saviour bubble breaking... > > Yesh...yesh I really can... > > > > *Pop* > > > > Oh there...its gone. > > *sigh* > > 0_0 > > Whatever are we going to do??? > > > > -Gel > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Dana, > > > > Liberia is in the middle of a civil war. Why should we intervene? > > Should we have intervened in Somalia? I don't think so. I don't > > think we should intervene in Liberia either. > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=5 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=5 This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. http://www.cfhosting.com Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.5
