Hi Randy,

Yes, I agree it extends the meaning of "area_type" a bit, but I would think we could legitimately describe the "nature of the surface" as being sunlit or in darkness ("covered by the darkness of night") or "enjoying the last vestiges of daylight" (i.e., twilight), so I don't think we should rule out its use on these grounds (although I'm not arguing the more specific "hybrid" option isn't superior).

regards,
Karl

On 1/14/14 8:39 AM, Randy Horne wrote:
Karl:

Here is the first sentence in the definition of area_type:

A variable with the standard name of area_type contains strings which indicate the nature of the surface e.g. land, sea, sea_ice.

Assuming we want to be consistent with the examples in the definition and the existing area_types, I am struggling with the notion that day/night/twilight are “the nature of the surface” ?

very respectfully,

randy



On Jan 10, 2014, at 11:30 AM, Karl Taylor <taylo...@llnl.gov <mailto:taylo...@llnl.gov>> wrote:

Dear Randy, Jonathan, and all,

I agree that the hybrid choice with "twilight" rather than "terminator, is clearest.

Just to cover all the options (or maybe to revisit a suggestion I missed earlier), could new area_type(s) be defined -- day, night, twilight -- and then we could just use the standard name area_fraction with, for example, a cell_methods of "area: sum where day over all_area_types". This would not explicitly indicate the zenith angle is used to define the region of day, but perhaps that could be implied by defining "solar_zenith_angle" coordinate bounds just as we would under the hybrid method.

Anyway, I agree that the hybrid choice would still be easier for most to interpret.

best regards,
Karl

On 1/10/14 4:52 AM, Randy Horne wrote:
Dear Jonathan:

good point on “area”.

“twilight” is fine.
I’m good with your preference of [a hybrid of (1) and (2) (i.e. 
area_fraction_of_night_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle, 
area_fraction_of_day_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle, 
area_fraction_of_twilight_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle)]


very respectfully,

randy



On Jan 10, 2014, at 6:50 AM, Jonathan Gregory<j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk>  wrote:

Dear Randy

Thanks for this useful summary.

You favour

(3) make use of existing area_fraction names and qualify the type of 
area_fraction with one or more coordinate variable(s) and accompany use of 
cell_methods attribute

pros: no need for an additional standard name, unambiguous, flexible (allows 
for a variety of yet-to-be-defined quantities), one variable can hold all three 
values
cons: modification to the definition of area_fraction required, more complex 
than other options
Later comment:
Option (3) requires separate variables for day, night, and terminator region 
because a variable has a single cell_methods attribute, and cell_methods is 
used to specify the areal extent.
I don't think so, actually. cell_methods would have "area: mean" in this case,
I think, because you can consider the area_fraction to be the mean over the
cell of a binary variable (0 or 1). I'm not sure if that's best, but it is
definitely not "point", and "sum" isn't appropriate because it's not extensive.
The bounds would belong to the coordinate variable of solar_zenith_angle.

I would be content with (3) but on the whole I prefer

(4) a hybrid of (1) and (2) (i.e. 
area_fraction_of_night_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle, 
area_fraction_of_day_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle, 
area_fraction_of_terminator_region_defined_by_solar_zenith_angle)

pros: very clear
cons: new form of standard names containing area_fraction, 3 standard names 
where 1 can be made to work
I like this because it's very clear, as you say. It thus avoids the problem of

(1) add a type of area fraction consistent with current definition of existing 
area_fraction (i.e.. day_area_fracton, night_area_fraction, 
day_night_terminator_area_fraction)

pros: clear, consistent with current use and definition of area
cons: 3 standard names where 1 can be made to work
which doesn't point out so prominently that "day" and "night" have to be
given precise definitions. The discussion shows that (2) causes problems
because we can't find a form of words (so far) that everyone considers to
convey the right notion.

(2)  add a new grammatical form of a standard_name containing area_fraction 
i.e.. area_fraction_X_solar_zenith_angle, 
area_fraction_for_solar_zenith_angle_within_bounds)

A variety of options have been set forth for X, such as "of", "as a function of", "with", 
"defined_by", "with_given"

pros: one standard name, one variable can hold all three values
cons: new form of standard names containing area_fraction, options are either 
not particularly clear or violate (to varying degrees) conventions associated 
with existing standard names,
I'd be interested to know whether you consider "twilight" to be acceptable.
Wikipedia also gives "twilight zone" as a synonym for "terminator". I think
"twilight" goes better with "day" and "night" than "terminator" does.

What do other people think about all the above?

Best wishes

Jonathan
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Randy C. Horne (rho...@excaliburlabs.com <mailto:rho...@excaliburlabs.com>)
Principal Engineer, Excalibur Laboratories Inc.
voice & fax: (321) 952.5100
url: http://www.excaliburlabs.com





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