Dear Jonathan, Martin, Karl, Thanks for discussing these names - I am always keen to make standard names and their definitions as accurate as possible, including making corrections if we don't get everything right in the original discussion. If I understand correctly, it is now only the dianeutral mixing terms that are being revisited and the other eddy terms introduced for OMIP should stay as originally agreed - is that right?
I am not an expert in these quantities, but I am happy to update the dianeutral mixing definitions as suggested by Martin if others are in agreement. Best wishes, Alison ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 NCAS/Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email: alison.pamm...@stfc.ac.uk STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory R25, 2.22 Harwell Oxford, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. -----Original Message----- From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> On Behalf Of Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC Sent: 04 March 2019 19:36 To: Jonathan Gregory <j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk>; cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu Cc: stephen.griff...@noaa.gov Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names Hello Jonathan, I agree that using "eddy" in terms which relate to vertical mixing is not ideal. It is not entirely incorrect, but I I think most people associate the term "eddy" with horizontal motions and so it is likely to cause confusion. The current definition: '"Eddy dianeutral mixing" means dianeutral mixing, i.e. mixing across neutral directions caused by the unresolved turbulent motion of eddies of all types (e.g., breaking gravity waves, boundary layer turbulence, etc.).' would then need to be replaced with something like: '"Dianeutral mixing" refers to mixing across surfaces of neutral bouyancy. "Parameterized" means the part due to a scheme representing processes which are not explicitly resolved by the model.' regards, Martin ________________________________ From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Jonathan Gregory <j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk> Sent: 04 March 2019 17:52 To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu Cc: stephen.griff...@noaa.gov Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names Dear Martin, Alison, Steve et al. You're quite right. I had completely forgotten this discussion. That reduces my concern a lot! Thanks. On 19 May 2017 (http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2017/019440.html, subject "New standard names for OMIP: physics" for this and related emails) I agreed with Alison and Steve Griffies that parameterized mesoscale advection (often Gent-McWilliams in ocean models) and parameterized submesoscale advection should have "eddy" included because they are contributions to parameterized eddy advection, and that parameterized mesoscale diffusion (often called "isopycnal diffusion" in ocean models) could also have eddy included by analogy. However this email didn't talk about inserting "eddy" in the dianeutral mixing names. Alison suggested this on 12 Oct 2017 (http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2017/019683.html) and I didn't notice - sorry about that. There are three such names: tendency_of_sea_water_conservative_temperature_expressed_as_heat_content_due_to_parameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing tendency_of_sea_water_potential_temperature_expressed_as_heat_content_due_to_parameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing tendency_of_sea_water_salinity_expressed_as_salt_content_due_to_parameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing which as proposed did not contain "eddy". These quantities do not refer to eddies in the sense of the other ones, and I suggest we should remove the eddy in the standard names. I wonder what you all think. Best wishes Jonathan ----- Forwarded message from Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> ----- > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 21:40:02 +0000 > From: Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> > To: Jonathan Gregory <j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk>, "cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu" > <cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names > > Dear Jonathan, > > > The CMIP6 Data Request uses the terms which are in the CF Standard Name list > ... with "eddy_advection". > > > The CF Standard Name editor link for one of the terms is here: > <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Enafy971fSF3mNJb5MObm3buH2yAm > amMkRcj5h9WmJM/edit#slide=id.p> > http://cfeditor.ceda.ac.uk/proposal/1795.<http://cfeditor.ceda.ac.uk/p > roposal/1795> > > > The email thread is here (the link from the editor is broken): > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2017/019691.html > .<http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/2017/019691.html> > > > I'm not sure if I've followed all the details ... but it looks as though > Alison proposed adding "eddy" and her proposal was accepted. > > > regards, > > Martin > > > ________________________________ > From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of > Jonathan Gregory <j.m.greg...@reading.ac.uk> > Sent: 01 March 2019 17:45 > To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names > > Dear Martin > > The names did get approved on the email list in the usual way. > However, some- thing must have gone wrong somewhere. Either the names > we asked to be approved were wrong (not the same as the ones in the > papers, which is what we intended), or the names in the standard_name > table aren't the ones that were approved - which seems unlikely. I'm > quite prepared to find that it was my mistake some- where! Anyway, I > think it could be put right with aliases. What do we have in the CMIP6 data > request? > > Best wishes > > Jonathan > > ----- Forwarded message from Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC > <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> ----- > > > Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 08:39:54 +0000 > > From: Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juc...@stfc.ac.uk> > > To: "Taylor, Karl E." <taylo...@llnl.gov>, "cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu" > > <cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu> > > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names > > > > Hello Jonathan, Karl, > > > > > > I don't understand why this is considered an "error" in the standard names. > > There are many cases where people have put terms in their GMD papers and > > claimed that they are "CF standard names" without taking the trouble to put > > them through the discussion and approval process of the CF Convention. This > > is a clear procedural error which happened in several MIPs ... we obviously > > need to improve communication on the procedures. > > > > > > In answer to Karl's question: there are no approved or aliased terms of the > > form "....mesoscale_advection" in the CF Standard Name list. The approved > > terms consistently use the form "mesoscale/submesoscale_eddy_advection". > > > > > > I didn't follow the discussion on these terms when they were added > > .. Alison may be able to say more about why the "eddy" term is > > included, > > > > > > regards, > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-boun...@cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of > > Taylor, Karl E. <taylo...@llnl.gov> > > Sent: 27 February 2019 21:47 > > To: cf-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] too many eddies in standard names > > > > Hi Jonathan, > > > > One could conceivably want to distinguish between, for example, > > > > northward_ocean_heat_transport_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_a > > dvection > > > > and > > > > northward_ocean_heat_transport_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_advect > > ion > > > > or does "mesoscale" imply "eddy" and for that reason "eddy" can be removed? > > If "mesocale eddy advection" and mesocale advection" are not identical, we > > could leave the already defined variables as is and add a companion set > > with "eddy" omitted. > > > > Of course for CMIP6, we would want to request only one of the two types of > > advection; from your reference to GMD, I assume you want the quantity > > without "eddy" in the name. > > > > best regards, > > Karl > > > > > > > > On 2/27/19 10:46 AM, Jonathan Gregory wrote: > > > Dear Alison, Martin et al. > > > > > > I have noticed that several of the new ocean tendency diagnostics > > > we have added to the standard name table for CMIP6 contain "eddy", but > > > should not do. > > > The word "eddy" should appear only in > > > parameterized_eddy_advection, not in mesoscale advection, > > > mesoscale diffusion, submesoscale advection or dianeutral mixing. > > > I think _eddy should be deleted from all of the names listed > > > below. I don't know how we got this wrong! The standard names appear > > > correctly in the two relevant GMD papers. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Jonathan > > > > > > northward_ocean_heat_transport_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy > > > _advection > > > northward_ocean_heat_transport_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy > > > _diffusion > > > northward_ocean_heat_transport_due_to_parameterized_submesoscale_e > > > ddy_advection > > > ocean_meridional_overturning_mass_streamfunction_due_to_parameteri > > > zed_mesoscale_eddy_advection > > > ocean_meridional_overturning_mass_streamfunction_due_to_parameteri > > > zed_submesoscale_eddy_advection > > > ocean_tracer_biharmonic_diffusivity_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale > > > _eddy_advection > > > ocean_tracer_diffusivity_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_advec > > > tion > > > ocean_tracer_laplacian_diffusivity_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_ > > > eddy_advection > > > ocean_y_overturning_mass_streamfunction_due_to_parameterized_mesos > > > cale_eddy_advection > > > ocean_y_overturning_mass_streamfunction_due_to_parameterized_subme > > > soscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_conservative_temperature_expressed_as_heat_c > > > ontent_due_to_parameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing > > > tendency_of_sea_water_conservative_temperature_expressed_as_heat_c > > > ontent_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_conservative_temperature_expressed_as_heat_c > > > ontent_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_diffusion > > > tendency_of_sea_water_conservative_temperature_expressed_as_heat_c > > > ontent_due_to_parameterized_submesoscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_potential_temperature_expressed_as_heat_cont > > > ent_due_to_parameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing > > > tendency_of_sea_water_potential_temperature_expressed_as_heat_cont > > > ent_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_potential_temperature_expressed_as_heat_cont > > > ent_due_to_parameterized_mesoscale_eddy_diffusion > > > tendency_of_sea_water_potential_temperature_expressed_as_heat_cont > > > ent_due_to_parameterized_submesoscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_salinity_expressed_as_salt_content_due_to_pa > > > rameterized_eddy_dianeutral_mixing > > > tendency_of_sea_water_salinity_expressed_as_salt_content_due_to_pa > > > rameterized_mesoscale_eddy_advection > > > tendency_of_sea_water_salinity_expressed_as_salt_content_due_to_pa > > > rameterized_mesoscale_eddy_diffusion > > > tendency_of_sea_water_salinity_expressed_as_salt_content_due_to_pa > > > rameterized_submesoscale_eddy_advection > > > _______________________________________________ > > > CF-metadata mailing list > > > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > > > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > > > > _______________________________________________ > > CF-metadata mailing list > > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > > _______________________________________________ > > CF-metadata mailing list > > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > CF-metadata mailing list > CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata _______________________________________________ CF-metadata mailing list CF-metadata@cgd.ucar.edu http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
