I understand why it is desirable to have an existing framework as opposed to creating a new one. There is always a build or buy decision that needs to be made when it comes to new development and I trust everyone has a good handle on how to evaluate these decisions for themselves. In my previous life as a developer, the various organizations I worked for and applications I helped create benefitted greatly from a custom framework even when you include the cost in time and money it took to develop the framework. Further, I can say that in all cases, new hires were able to come up-to-speed immediately. Even though I no longer work at any of these companies my frameworks are still in place and the employees are developing quite fine without the original architect. I don't think that has anything to do with the framework; it's more a function of CFML being so easy to understand.
-Matt On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 05:21 PM, Barney Boisvert wrote: > And there, Matt, is the crux of the issue. There is a fairly > substantial > benefit to using a generic framework, even if it's not exactly what > would be > considered 'ideal'. First, you don't have to spend the time > developing it, > and second, you won't have to train every single person that comes in > the > door to work on your project. > > If I were to start a new project tomorrow, I could either grab Fusebox > (or > Struts, or whatever) and start architecting and coding, or I could > start > building a framework, and refine it and test it, and then start > architecting > and coding, once the framework is complete. Fusebox4 has been months > in > development; Struts 1.1 was much longer than that, and both have both > been > years from the initial get-go to now. > > I can get the majority of the functionality I want immediately by > using an > existing framework, and start the actual app (what I get paid for), or > I can > spend a long time making a custom framework that provides all the > functionality I want first (and not get paid for it), and then > develope the > app. I'd have to make one hell of an improvement over existing > frameworks > for rolling my own to be an economical decision, even over the course > of > numerous applications developed with it. > > barneyb > > --- > Barney Boisvert, Senior Development Engineer > AudienceCentral > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice : 360.756.8080 x12 > fax : 360.647.5351 > > www.audiencecentral.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 2:03 PM >> To: CF-Talk >> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >> >> >> I could have sworn the other I saw a demo of Struts running on CF and >> for that matter I seem to recall Fusebox on J2EE as well. Anyway... on >> to the rest of your email. >> >> Why do you want a framework from me that will work better than Fusebox >> for your needs? Wouldn't you be the best person to create such a >> framework. A better question is, why haven't you created a better >> framework for your needs? >> >> -Matt >> >> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 04:46 PM, Sandy Clark wrote: >> >>> Again, I don't think anyone can say they will use Fusebox in a Java >>> World or >>> Struts in a CF5 world. There is no comparison. If you are talking >>> numbers >>> as a way to go by your own supposition, there are 10 times the number >>> of >>> Java Developers. You can't compare the frameworks like that. There >>> is no >>> commonality in terms of ability to use them in the areas for which >>> they are >>> not designed. >>> >>> So I don't think that comparing Struts to Fusebox is a reasonable >>> comparison. Its like saying there are more people in the world who >>> drive >>> cars rather than boats, cars sell better, therefore regardless of >>> whether >>> you are on land or water, you should be in a car. >>> >>> Cars are for land, boats are for water. >>> Struts is for Java, Fusebox is for CFML. >>> >>> Personally I don't care how many people use something. To me that >>> isn't a >>> valid argument. What I am concerned about is what will work for me >>> and the >>> people who work with me in developing web applications quickly and >>> cleanly. >>> >>> >>> I have yet to be introduced to a framework that will work in both CF5 >>> or >>> CFMX that will help me structure my code and not have to worry about >>> all the >>> housekeeping, other than Fusebox. I've looked at BlackBox, I've >>> looked at >>> SmartObjects. Neither of them come close. >>> >>> If you have a framework that will work better in ColdFusion, then >>> please >>> introduce it to me. I have always said that I will be more then happy >>> to >>> drop Fusebox if something better comes along. I've always said it's >>> a >>> framework not a religion. >>> >>>>> There are a lot of reasons why one would use Struts over Fusebox >>>>> and >>>>> vice versa, but if sheer numbers matter to people than Struts is >>>>> the >>>>> way to go since it is used by a lot more people. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 4:24 PM >>> To: CF-Talk >>> Subject: Re: Cons to Fusebox >>> >>> >>> I don't see why comparing different kinds of framework is an issue if >>> you limit your comparison to specifics that are shared by both. As I >>> pointed out in my first email, there is no one framework that is best >>> for all applications, so what the framework is or what it does is >>> irrelevant to my point, which was in regards to sheer numbers. And >>> since both frameworks have a following it is perfectly acceptable to >>> compare that following. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 03:07 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting that you are comparing a Java Framework to a ColdFusion >>>> framework. Don't you think that is comparing Apples to Oranges? >>>> >>>> Within the Java World, Struts is by far the most adapted Framework >>>> of >>>> its kind. Within the ColdFusion world (and I am not just referring >>>> to >>>> CFMX here). Fusebox is the most adapted Framework of its kind. >>>> >>>> So don't compare Fusebox with Struts, compare it to BlackBox and >>>> SmartObjects. Those are the items within the same realm, just as >>>> you >>>> would compare Struts to Jade rather than comparing Struts to Zope. >>>> >>>>> I saw this thread mentioned on Sean's blog and I was thinking about >>>>> rejoining this list before reading his blog, so here I am. I'm not >>>>> interested in trying to rehash much of the debate since I am late >>>>> to >>>>> this thread, but I feel like it is important to make at least a >>>>> couple >>>>> of points. >>>>> >>>>> First, I largely agree with Dave's position in this debate, but I >>>>> don't >>>>> agree with him in regards to his application of common sense in >>>>> lieu >>>>> of >>>>> a framework. I think frameworks are extremely valuable and can make >>>>> an >>>>> enormous difference in the success of web applications especially >>>>> where >>>>> more than 3 people on working on them. Of course, picking the wrong >>>>> framework for an application can lead to all sorts of problems, so >>>>> the >>>>> notion of one framework being the correct one in every case should >>>>> be >>>>> abandoned. >>>>> >>>>> Second, I have seen numerous references by Fusebox people both in >>>>> and >>>>> out of this thread in regards to how the sheer number of people >>>>> using >>>>> Fusebox is an important point. I like to put that into perspective >>>>> a >>>>> bit. According to Fusebox.org, there are 17756 using Fusebox. Not >>>>> sure >>>>> where that number comes from, but let's apply that to the number of >>>>> CF >>>>> developers, which is supposed to be about 300,000. That would mean >>>>> about 6% of CF developers are using Fusebox. Now then, let's assume >>>>> that 6% of Java developers are using Struts. Since there is >>>>> supposed >>>>> to >>>>> be about 3,000,000 Java developers that would mean there would be >>>>> 180,000 Java developers using Struts. >>>>> >>>>> There are a lot of reasons why one would use Struts over Fusebox >>>>> and >>>>> vice versa, but if sheer numbers matter to people than Struts is >>>>> the >>>>> way to go since it is used by a lot more people. BTW, if you don't >>>>> buy >>>>> the above numbers; take a look at the Amazon.com sales rankings for >>>>> the >>>>> 10+ struts books vs. the Fusebox books. >>>>> >>>>> -Matt >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 12:27 PM, Erik Yowell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Trade offs. Everything is a trade off. Sometimes the quick, >>>>>>> unstructured 'hack' is the right solution... >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This for me (being a small shop) is why I've extensively adopted a >>>>>> framework like Fusebox. Most of my projects are not going to >>>>>> become >>>>>> an >>>>>> Amazon.com anytime soon, while this doesn't mean I should write >>>>>> sloppy >>>>>> code - it does allow the flexibility of allowing a bit of a >>>>>> processing >>>>>> overhead in lieu of manageability and the ability to bring in >>>>>> external >>>>>> talent to easily assist me in changes (if needed) by providing a >>>>>> good >>>>>> set of standards and the Fusebox docs. I don't have to spend >>>>>> precious >>>>>> time educating another developer on the intricacies of a custom >>>>>> framework. >>>>>> >>>>>> Despite what organizations like Rational think (in the sense that >>>>>> there >>>>>> is no such thing as RAD development) - I mean, come on now, how >>>>>> many >>>>>> developers out there have had the "I needed it yesterday" >>>>>> conversation >>>>>> with a client? I find having the ability to quickly find and make >>>>>> changes to medium sized projects, forced structuring of code and >>>>>> application processes to be a boon. >>>>>> >>>>>> Erik Yowell >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> http://www.shortfusemedia.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
