The events of today are tragic. I do not in anyway condone or defend the
acts that have happened today, or, in some cases below, in the past. In no
way do I agree with the nationalistic rhetoric below by Steve. I am
surprised by his heated attack on the arguer and not the argument. I wonder
why you are so hot about this Steve, was one of your family members on one
of the planes or in the towers? How could possibly guess how I or anyone
would feel if that were the case? Maybe my thoughts would still be clear
and, well, thoughtful.
I find myself trying to figure out WHY someone would want to do this. WHAT
was their motive. My only thought is that they must feel they ARE at war
with us, whether we, the US, accepts it or not. Until we UNDERSTAND our
enemies (note the plural), we will not be able to fight them with the
conventional means we are used using. Those days, of massive tank battles at
Kursk or the Bulge are long gone. We hardly even know WHO our enemies are.
After Oklahoma, all you heard on the news was Arab this and Arab that.
Instead it was an American ex-soldier, decorated to boot, who killed so many
of his own people because he felt he was "at war" with the government. My
guess is that whoever did this feels the same way. They are at war with this
(my) country.
Let's see, did we warn Panama, a sovereign state, that we were coming? No.
Did we kidnap and extradite their president? Yes. Oh, he was a BAD man and
we needed someone nice down there. Then why haven't we done this in so many
other countries that have dictators who oppress their people? Economic need.
There is none.
Did we tell the Vietnamese that the Buff's were coming in at 40K feet and
dropping bombs on their civilians. No. Did we ever truly commit to war with
North Vietnam and make a Declaration or War? No. Did we kill millions of
people? Yes. Why were there? Was it to keep the Military Industrial Complex
fat and happy? Or the businessmen running Washington fat and happy? Probably
both. Or was it to stop the spread of communism? Well since we lost, I guess
that is moot. We never did fully understand the mind of the people we were
fighting, we lost the war and won most of the battles.
How many "innocent" people have died in Iraq since President Bush_1 declared
a cessation of hostilities in the case of the Gulf War? It is in the tens of
thousands. We have been there for 10 years, expending billions of dollars to
enforce the no fly zone and the trade sanctions. Why did we not finish the
job we had started? Why did we not support the rebels in his country who
wanted to fight him? Instead, we abandoned them because, politically, we
were no more sure of them than we were of him. Did we have ticker tape
parades in the streets when our troops came home? You bet. And did they kill
people? You bet. Thousands. We were not celebrating the deaths of the
thousands, but the victors.
Why do we fight wars? Principally it is to put forward our political and
economic objectives. Hence the enormous expenditures on the military -- for
the ability to project might around the world and defend OR extend these
political and economic interests, mainly protecting our corporate interests,
not the high ideals of democracy. (Again, this is not to say I disagree with
it, only that I cut through the ideological rhetoric on TV to the reality of
what we are about).
I find it funny what people consider attacks of terrorism. England
considered George Washington and the rest of the *Revolutionists* (note
that) traitors to the Crown of England. Actually, they were. They saw an
opportunity to gain enormous wealth and political power and took it. Humans
are, after all, extremely good at being opportunistic, better than almost
any other species except may sharks.
In the context of the events of today, I have to think that these people,
whoever did this, feel that they are at war with this country and that the
only way they can put forward their economic or political agenda is through
what we label terrorism. They certainly cannot come right out and fight us,
no chance. So they try something that in their way of thinking, which is not
at all like ours, will force us to concede something on their political or
economic agenda. Until we understand that the old way of fighting wars, like
the Russians learned in Afghanistan, is gone and that our enemies are fluid,
with no clear boundaries, we will have this happen again.
We must, MUST change our way of thinking about battling these people that
threaten us. Isreal has, they understand that they are at war with the
Palestinian group Hamas and have targeted and killed their leaders. Some
would call that terrorist assassinations.
It is tragic that this has happened, whether it be in this country or any
other country. Thousands and thousands of lives will be forever and
irrevocably altered because of the events set in motion my a small minority
of people (men?) in this world.
I know I may draw some fire for this, so be it. This is all I will say on
this matter and will not respond to any emails regarding it.
-Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Aylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:32 PM
> To: CF-Talk
> Subject: Re: Terrorism
>
>
> Oh I see NOEL ...
>
> Our country ... AMERICA gets its ass blown to shit today .
> 1,000's of lives
> are wasted .... and you wanna get hung up on political correctness?
>
> Its the panzy ass political correctness bullshit like your drivel
> below that
> has gotten our country into its slack ass state of disrepair and
> de-sensitization. This is still AMERICA [God Bless It], and if some
> american wants to go off on a generalization tangent TODAY about
> Palastinians [i dont freakin care how its spelled today - blow it out your
> asses] - who are reveling at our tragedy - So Be it.
>
> Last I looked ..... Americans werent throwing a parade when a bunch of
> civilians and women, children got wasted. Last I checked US didnt waste
> anyone without warning or especially declaring WAR on their sorry hides.
>
> Generalize this ...... SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!
>
> You were right about one thing - Way to fan the flames... It is
> EXACTLY what
> this country needs a long time ago - How much more of this shit
> are we going
> to take from these POS's.... before something meaningful to end
> it happens.
> They will never be happy till we're all DEAD ... dying some heinous,
> tortuous death. Nothing the US can ever do will change their
> minds. So who
> gives a shit about the people responsible's "feelings".
>
> Wonder what you'd be saying if your mom, sister or brother dad etc were on
> one of those planes or in those buildings?
>
> Steve Aylor
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Flatters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:10 AM
> Subject: RE: Terrorism
>
>
> > > Anyone seen the reports that the Palestinians are dancing in
> the streets
> > > and passing out candy?
> >
> > What purpose do comments like this serve? "the Palestinians"???? Nice
> > generalization of a group of people. I work in an office with
> palestinian
> > co-workers and I can assure you that they are shocked and dismayed about
> > this tragedy.
> >
> > Congrats on fanning the flames. That's exactly what people need right
> now...
> >
>
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