I hear/share your pain Andrew. ZeroOne was a predominantly CF based shop for 9 years and for the last two years I have been battling/arguing with Adobe about the "fact" that it's cheaper to buy Cold Fusion online with a credit card from the Adobe Store than from the New Zealand distributor (i.e. wholesale price). Significantly cheaper in some cases/versions.
Lots of promised made by Adobe to fix it, and then the departure of Steve from Adobe Auzzy, resulted in dead-silence and no such "fix" of the problem. So as a hosting company we were faced with buying licenses the retail way for clients who were expecting to get something other than retail when dealing with a "reseller" of the product as a bundle for a solution. And on top of that to get a box copy would mean we pay more than retail. So now ZeroOne has grown to 19 staff, 11 of which are developers and I'm sad (but glad) to say that 100% of the new staff (7 new staff) have been more .Net focused than CF focused. I'm sad about this because CF rocks and I personally love coding in CF. But I'm glad about this because my woes with Adobe won't become a shadow over client projects anymore and I won't have to convince clients to pay a license for something that don't need now that we can develop the same solutions in .Net at $0 additional cost to the hosting side of things (since .Net is a native application server in IIS). We will always support CF in our hosting facilities (including CF8), and we'll continue to use the product (including CF8) but it's no longer the core offering because it's not financially viable to make it the core offering. There ya go, shared my view, hope it wasn't too boring :o) Cheers Bruce ----------------------------------------- Bruce Trevarthen, CEO ZeroOne (NZ) Limited --- DDI: +64 4 4714444 Mobile: +64 21 567967 ------------------------------- From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Scott Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 4:10 p.m. To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey Scott, Ok there are some things that I can discuss, and i'll answer what I can. First of all the $700k is based on the licensing of CF Enterprise Edition only, secondly it is a forecasted model for the infrastructure required. And yes there are more to these boxes than the eye can read. The point of discussion is this, and others haven't picked up on it yet. Here is what we have achieved, and no its not going to break any NDA that I am under. Using JSP, Struts, Spring, Hibernate, and a few other software that sits on top of an application server we have a product that is going (hopefully) be very profitable. Now, the thing is that some of the features that CF would have been used for, IM, gateways, html processing, PDF documents, reports to name a few. We have sourced all open source solutions, and what licenses we have paid for comes to a total of $2k. What coldfusion would have been good for, is the middle tear application that delivered in a very short time frame all those solutions with minimal coding, plus the ability to prove the other features we have for client side more easily. But as I said without even going beyond one machine, we are looking at $10k AUD for a license cheaper if we go to Adobe. There is an $8k saving already for us to deliver what we have so far, so JSP was the answer it is free, requires no license to deploy and we have no more added costs if we have to expand. I can not say the same for Coldfusion. Now as the infastructure requires more than 1 machine, then each machine is going to increase the cost of the CF license and yet we have a set $2k license for what we have no matter how many machines we end up needing to deploy too. Now the regardless or not of what we are looking at, one has to seriously look at how many larger companies are looking for Enterprise solutions and then look at the cost of a CF license ontop of devleopment costs to deliver. The point is it shows that coldfusion is not a competitor (a serious one) in that market, I know that there are TLP licensing but I am not the one who controls the finances. And the descion was made based on what is known to the managment, this is the problem that Coldfusion faces whether I am a die hard evangalist or not, one has to look at the reality of what companies are doing and why they are doing it. Sure there is a lot of work for boutiques, web development for the average developer. But seriously how many people on this list as used Coldfusion in an Enterprise solution to this sort of scale. This is not about me and my gripes, this is about every Coldfusion developer and how we are loosing a market due to costings. And @Derison, grow up. Look at the bigger picture of what we have to compete with before opening your mouth. On 6/28/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: At 700k worth of infrastructure seems excessive for a Coldfusion only based solution? Are these servers set aside purely to spin-up Coldfusion only or do they have other sides to their story? Whilst most are going the usual "Anti-Andrew" approach on this thread (Relax more dude, let the conversation flow), I'm curious to see how 700k gets put on the table first, only to then question software license models - it seems like the Software Architecture isn't being planned appropriately, secondly you're not in contact with your Suppliers (Adobe in this case) and thirdly you're airing what appears to be sensitive information on a public thread. If you were about to spin-up $700k in hosting infrastructure and it came down to Software OEM models as cause for concern.. I would hope Adobe are in their fast to help ease your pain points as that sounds like a significant win for N+ technology such as Coldfusion :) On 6/28/07, Andrew Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Drew, > > 1) Can't speak for Coldfusion 8, as I believe the differences are changing. > But under CFMX7+, the speed of Enterprise is faster, it also has Gateways to > name a few of the differences. There is a feature edition matrix somewhere > that will go into this in more detail. Also the ability to run of other > Application Servers, which you can't do with the standard version. > > 2) BlueDragon is not free, please go and double check what you do know about > BlueDragon. > > 3) Enterprise applications are not average applications, if they were then > the world would have no need for J2EE development. > > > > Andrew Scott > Senior Coldfusion Developer > Aegeon Pty. Ltd. > www.aegeon.com.au <http://www.aegeon.com.au/> > Phone: +613 8676 4223 > Mobile: 0404 998 273 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> [mailto: > cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf > Of skateboard.com.au<http://skateboard.com.au/> > Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 11:35 AM > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey > > > Hi All > > Sorry, but I havn't really paid too much attention to all things CF in > the last few years. > > What does CF have in enterprise these days thats so important? > Can't you just run your average app on BlueDragon for free anyway? > > thanks > > Drew Peacock > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Dale Fraser" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > To: <cfaussie@googlegroups.com <mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> > > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:16:33 +1000 > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey > > > > > 700k? Did you mean 70k > > > > 700k would be 100 servers worth of enterprise > > > > I'm assuming that means you have 100 companies with their own servers > > who > > need a licence, in which case that would be their cost not yours. > > > > Regards > > Dale Fraser > > > > http://dalefraser.blogspot.com<http://dalefraser.blogspot.com/> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> > > [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com>] On > > Behalf > > Of Andrew Scott > > Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 11:09 AM > > To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey > > > > > > Geoff, > > > > You really did not make sense, my beef is with the cost. Not how much > > we > > leverage of Coldfusion or not. > > > > But all I can say, is that we are looking at a hardware infrastructure > > that > > would see us need to spend in excess of $700k in licensing of > > Coldfusion > > only. Compare that to the $2k we spent and tell me why big enterprises > > won't > > use Coldfusion. > > > > And explain to the rest of us how you would justify going the > > Coldfusion > > route. > > > > Again it has nothing to do about what I develop in, or what I love. It > > comes > > down to what the businesses and companies of australia are prepaired to > > spend. > > > > And all I can say to you Geoff, is this. If you where in the position > > to > > create an Application, and hardware infastructure for a very larger > > project, > > and you could spend $2k in software comapred to $700k what business > > decision > > would you take, knowing that there is no way you can recoup the $700k? > > > > And to shut you up Geoff, I will die a Coldfusion programmer if I have > > the > > chance. > > > > > > Andrew Scott > > Senior Coldfusion Developer > > Aegeon Pty. Ltd. > > www.aegeon.com.au <http://www.aegeon.com.au/> > > Phone: +613 8676 4223 > > Mobile: 0404 998 273 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com <mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com> > > [mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com<mailto:cfaussie@googlegroups.com>] On > > Behalf > > Of Geoff Bowers > > Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 9:49 AM > > To: cfaussie > > Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2:10 am, "Andrew Scott" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL > > PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > > There are other reasons that Enterpirse is not viable for us, but if > > the > > OEM > > > license can be passed onto the user of the application for $250 then > > I > > have > > > a serious debate with my boss. > > > > > > But the cheaper the better I tell you that now... > > > > You can't justify the expense of the CF license as your product > > doesn't leverage enough from CF. Or you don't sell enough of it to > > make the cost of CF work for you. That's fine. Use Java/.NET/Babbage > > Difference Engine/whatever and cobble together your own environment. > > So there you have it: end of another mind numbing thread. > > > > Please stop belly-aching about ColdFusion and how it doesn't match > > *your* requirements. None of us on this list really care. > > > > Regards, > > > > -- geoff > > http://www.daemon.com.au/ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: > > 26/06/2007 > > 11:54 PM > > > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: > > 26/06/2007 > > 11:54 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 26/06/2007 > 11:54 PM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date: 26/06/2007 > 11:54 PM > > > > > -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com<http://www.mossyblog.com/> www.aegeon.com.au Phone: +613 8676 4223 Mobile: 0404 998 273 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "cfaussie" group. 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