8-10% - That's of those seeking employment. Uncounted are those who aren't seeking employment. It's something i was told, and the number includes people who have decided to remain unemployed and just live off of welfare. In any case, the exact percentage is unimportant. There are a lot of unemployed programmers in Sweden. And they don't have to take menial jobs to eat. They can stay on welfare for a considerable amount of time, years, before they're pushed into getting another job. Then they'll work for a few months, get laid off or quit, and be on welfare for an extended period.
It's a more appealing lifestyle for many programmers because they can work on open source projects they like, however much they like, rather than working for a boss. The point i'm trying to make is that the moral ideal around "free open source" isn't tenable. If a private company isn't paying all those open source developers for all that time, then someone or something else is supporting them. And i can't think of any other means, on a broad scale to pay for the development of a large piece of software, than welfare. You can't be a working developer with a computer and live in a makeshift hut on nuts and berries. "Free" simply isn't possible. Somebody's got to pay. For the developer's food and housing, insurance, car, computer, internet connection, electricity, everything. It seems to be a misconception we've absorbed from somewhere, that "free open source" is virtuous. But it can't be free. It's not. Somebody's always had to pay. >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Behalf Of Baz >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 3:45 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [CFCDev] State of Coldfusion UI Development > > > >Never been to a Scandinavian country but stats say: > >- They have the highest standard of living >- Lowest degree of earnings inequality >- Highest rates of education in developed world >- Least crime in developed world >- Least incidents of racism, sexism, and other prejudice >- Most environmentally friendly and environmentally conscious >- Their worst off citizens are better-off than the worst-off Americans > >And the unemployment rate is 8-10%, nowhere near 30%. > >Scandinavian countries have less ultra-wealthy millionaires and >billionaires >than America, but I think their model is better than that of N.America or >the rest of Europe. > >As for Open Source not generating money, I think that's a fallacy. MySQL is >a rich company with well paid employees. I would guess that the >net worth of >Hal, Ray, and other OS developers is probably higher than the >average on the >list. > >There are many externalities that generate revenue from OS >projects - try to >get Hal to speak about MachII, it's definitely gonna cost you more than >49.99$ > >The main point here, and it's a good one, is to perhaps use different tools >to teach. And charging for them is more than alright. The docs are still >there free, but if you want a private lesson or videos, not a big deal to >pay. > >Baz > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >Of Nando >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:30 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [CFCDev] State of Coldfusion UI Development > >Hal, > >> And >>while we can, should, and do produce some free stuff, it would >take someone >>thinking they could be paid for their work to do the kind of >comprehensive, >>high quality, online training you're talking about. > >Sorry to everyone on the list for suddenly being so verbose. But i >wanted to >respond to this. It almost sounds as if someone thinking they could be paid >for their work to create an online training course is a novel idea. Why? > >I don't think open source morality (it's "gooder" to provide it free) is >doing us any good at all. There's been a poster over on the model glue list >espousing the virtue of PHP over ColdFusion. "It's open source!" he says, >and the implication is that anyone or any company that charges for >a product >or service in the software space is morally inferior. > >Ah, the virtue of open source, free software. How wonderful the air is up >here! > >I have a feeling that a certain misplaced idealism in the software world >sometimes prevents us from having a healthy, open exchange of >training using >a) the tools we know how to use on the internet and b) our free market >economy. > >Where do we get this idea that among ourselves, we need to be socialists - >training should be "Free" "Provided by those in authority". Again and again >i hear skilled people saying that they don't have more time to devote to >helping others (that is should be free is automatically assumed). "Sorry, i >need to make a living too." > >And sometimes i read comments like those from the poster on the model glue >list, subtly condemning ColdFusion. As if people who used money as a medium >exchange instead of trading directly, like our ancestors did, furs for >grains, grains for donkeys, were somehow less human. > >I don't think many people realize where this "Free" open source software is >coming from. Nobody in America seems to have much time or energy to work on >open source software. At least nobody in the CF community. As programmers, >we all know that it takes a dedicated chunk of time to program anything, >often a very big chuck of time for some small thing. We all know that you >just can't drop into a programming project for a few minutes every now and >then to help out. Especially a big one. You'd need to understand how your >contribution interacts and affects everything else. > >Contributions to any software, even small ones, take large chunks of >dedicated time. > >So who's doing all this virtuous open source stuff, and where do they get >the time? Is it just because Americans, CF'ers in particular, are more >greedy that they don't sacrifice more time to open source projects? To the >common good? Sometimes people even sound guilty ... > >Take MySQL as an example. The default language? Swedish. Strange. >Swedish is >spoken by only 6 million people or so. Most European countries have many >more people than that. Why Swedish? Why not French? Or German? Or Spanish? >Or Italian? Or English? > >Because MySQL is born and raised in Sweden. In fact, all open source >software seems to have very strong roots in Scandinavia. > >30% of the workforce is unemployed in Sweden. On the dole. Why? The income >tax rate there hovers around 50% for the middle class and higher for anyone >with more income. The VAT or sales tax is 25%. It's a socialist country. >University education is paid for by the government and very much >encouraged. >I don't have any figures but i'm fairly sure the rate of unemployed amongst >programmers is higher than 30%. It's very expensive to hire people in >Sweden. You need to pay them enough so they can afford their taxes, and pay >taxes to employ them as well. Swedes are often better off financially just >staying on the dole than taking a low paying job that might come their way. >So they do. > >Unemployed programmers in Scandinavian countries work on open source >software to continue to hone their skills so they hopefully can >get employed >in their area of expertise, programming, rather than as a street cleaner - >or just to have something to do. It's very common that someone on >welfare in >Sweden stays on welfare for many years, unemployed. Collectively, they've >got a very large chunk of time they can dedicate to complex programming >tasks. Programmers at Swedish universities also work on open source >software. Many stay in school longer, because they know there >might not be a >job waiting for them if they leave. > >It seems the Scandinavian taxpayer has financed the development of a >significant portion of the open source software out there today. Not all of >course, but a significant chunk of it. I don't have any hard facts at hand, >but after living in Sweden over the last few years on and off, that's my >distinct impression. The government would very much like to get more people >back to work, as the national debt is piling up, but the trend is moving in >the opposite direction. > >If we just stop and think about it, it's obvious that a lot of people would >need to have a LOT of free time to develop a significant piece of software >like Linux, MySQL, Apache, PHP. Sponsored free time. Dedicated free time. >Paid free time. Where are all those big chunks of free time coming >from? Not >from you and me, for sure. We're too busy. We're employed! > >Now tell me. Would you guys in America be better off if your government >doubled or tripled your tax rates, made it too expensive to easily employ >programmers, putting 35% or 40% of you on welfare, so that we could have >free "open source" ColdFusion training and take the moral high ground? > >I don't think so. I'd much rather pay for my training directly. > >It's really not the case that a virtuous sacrifice of time sanctifies open >source software as being morally superior. As i see it, a big part of it is >just a very high tax rate fostering large scale unemployment in a highly >educated society. My opinion here, but it's very feasible that >Linux, MySQL, >Apache, etc would have been much more economical, in a social sense, if >private firms would have developed them, rather than having been >financed to >a large extent, by the welfare systems in Europe, especially Sweden. Not >that there's anything wrong with unemployed developers on welfare >working on >a project ... it just throws a different light on the whole thing. > >Hence, i'd like to encourage anyone who's got a skill that you can train >someone else in to please do it, put it online so it's easily >available, and >charge for it. That's virtuous, and generous, even if you make a >good sum of >money doing so. Why? Because it will actually work and get a lot of people >trained really well. > >:) nando > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >You are subscribed to cfcdev. To unsubscribe, send an email to >[email protected] with the words 'unsubscribe cfcdev' as the >subject of the >email. > >CFCDev is run by CFCZone (www.cfczone.org) and supported by CFXHosting >(www.cfxhosting.com). > >An archive of the CFCDev list is available at >www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- >You are subscribed to cfcdev. To unsubscribe, send an email to >[email protected] with the words 'unsubscribe cfcdev' as the >subject of the email. > >CFCDev is run by CFCZone (www.cfczone.org) and supported by >CFXHosting (www.cfxhosting.com). > >An archive of the CFCDev list is available at >www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > ---------------------------------------------------------- You are subscribed to cfcdev. To unsubscribe, send an email to [email protected] with the words 'unsubscribe cfcdev' as the subject of the email. 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