However, that is a different matter. Reading the reference manual might be required to master a language (at least I am not prepared to argue otherwise). Not to mention that it would have to be a never-ending enterprise since languages and reference manuals evolve just as anything else.
Yet, it is not startling (not to me anyway) that some users are able to use a language to produce what they need while ignoring the reference manual totally or most of it. I was once part of a team for a few years working on a project involving COBOL programming. The manual was available but I never had to open it. I had taken a course in college though and I could always ask other members with more experience for advice (if necessary). That was not an isolated instance and I have encountered over the years many other users of other languages that were quite capable to do the same. I have only spent, I am afraid, a tiny fraction of the time reading the Dictionary compared to what apparently you have spent. Then again, I have never considered myself to be an expert; yet, I manage to persuade J to do what I want to be done according to my goals. On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > Every programming language which I have mastered, I have read a > reference manual for at least once. > > In languages which I dabble, I have not bothered - but I do not use > those much, either. (Generally speaking, if a language reference > manual is not something I can obtain cheaply, I have ignored the > language. COBOL probably being the first example of this.) > > Mind you, it takes quite a long time to *digest* a language reference. > I probably took a two or three years working through J's dictionary > (maybe half an hour a day and lots of naps), but that's a different > issue. > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Jose Mario Quintana > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I am surprised how many people have not read the reference manual - > >> not just in the J community but among technical people in general. > >> > >> I really don't know what to make of this. > > > > This, to me, is akin to wondering why many people, particularly young > > children, can communicate orally fairly well in a language even when they > > have not studied its grammar. > > > > On the one hand, I write J tacitly the same way I speak, almost always > > without consciously thinking about grammar rules. On the other hand, I > > learned J, a long time ago, by reading the Dictionary (which is not a > > recommended way to learn it) and simultaneously experimenting with the > > interpreter (which is definitely recommended). > > > > I wish I had the time to read the Dictionary again in its entirety. > Yet, I > > still remember fondly the answer of a brilliant boss of mine when I > > suggested we should look at one particular reference manual: "Are you > > kidding? Manuals are the last resort!" > > > > :) > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 3:46 AM, Erling Hellenäs > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > I doubt you can find reasonably accurate descriptions of this > >> functionality > >> > (these four helper programs) anywhere else. > >> > >> This suggests to me that you have not read > >> > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dictb.htm > >> nor > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dicta.htm > >> > >> I am surprised how many people have not read the reference manual - > >> not just in the J community but among technical people in general. > >> > >> I really don't know what to make of this. > >> > >> -- > >> Raul > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
