Whoops, the magic of Youtube gave me the wrong link for the video teaser of jig. Here is the correct one. https://youtu.be/dK1y_V07214
Cheers, bob > On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:52 PM, robert therriault <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi J4, > > You have raised a lot of points and hopefully they will become areas of > discussion by those who are more qualified than myself. The areas that I have > interest in are the presentation of information through the interactive > environment and effective use of the labs as an interactive teaching tool. > > It sounds to me as if you recognize the value of labs, but that they do not > fit your learning style. Can you tell me a bit more about that? I am trying > to determine what can distinguish effective labs from those that are less > effective and your point of view on all labs may give me some ideas. > > The jig addon in the jqt environment is an example of the sort of interactive > environment augmentation that I have worked on. There is a short video of > the interface at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiPWVhoX1Z8 and also a lab > running through some of the features under the name "jig augmented display". > You seem to prefer the stripped down environment of the console, but I wonder > if it would be able to attract more users, as the console, although very > powerful, does feel a bit old school. > > And thanks for the effort of putting your extensive thoughts down on paper. > My experience of the J community is that they will challenge you, but they > are appreciative of the efforts all have put into developing the language - > with your postings you are part of that process. > > Cheers, bob > >> On Feb 28, 2018, at 7:40 PM, james faure <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, it >> will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J >> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from >> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends >> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech >> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they are >> convinced of it's power. >> >> Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> >> international.epitech.eu >> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech and >> hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has solidified >> its reputation ... >> >> >> >> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in J, >> I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the hope >> that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the time >> that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure about >> whether the language would have a future and whether it would be suitable to >> do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the reason I am >> here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself from time to >> time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, or worth >> learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be the main >> place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with those >> conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both extremely >> determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty of spare >> time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the only person >> who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first few steps. >> The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in the style of >> this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my statements are >> harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more like a plea for >> help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant because of my >> convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with nor in charge of >> jsoftware. >> >> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source forum >> about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization for such >> a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times that extended >> precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has even threatened >> my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious doubts on it's ability >> to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's existence is it's >> complete failure to keep up with modern trends: >> >> >> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to >> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to preface >> every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt sufficiently >> annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed. >> >> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some >> people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of >> visiting it. >> >> 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely popular >> nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will >> always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove >> unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has almost >> no presence on SO. >> >> 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an abherration: >> nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate this >> and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have much >> more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given logical >> names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is a >> miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 o. >> y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need standard default >> names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule >> performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent names, the >> possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more important. >> >> 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should certainly >> not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally >> >> 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in >> keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I very >> much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, but >> the website's overall presentation is not good. >> >> 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, (not >> my learning style but for sure they are valuable) >> >> 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on >> jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd party >> https://tio.run/#j >> >> This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently hooked >> in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. >> >> 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the binary, >> builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' should print some >> example uses of insert and a brief summary) >> >> 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank error' >> not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending nouns + >> their ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug interface, but >> this shouldn't be necessary. >> >> 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many more >> explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). >> >> 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given the >> current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. >> >> >> Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it must >> lie dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up again, >> in a new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. >> >> I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but things >> must change, and radically if J is to live. >> >> J4 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
