:D On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Roger Hui <[email protected]> wrote:
> Reports of my demise are been greatly exaggerated. > > > On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am > > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can > > > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still > contributes > > to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL influence is > > noticeable sometimes). > > > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest > in > > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, in > > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. > > > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall > > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is > now > > (AFAIK) with... Dyalog APL! He also still contributes to the forum > > occasionally. > > > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago > discussing, > > while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done to advance > > in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly > > under-utilized paradigm. What was their conclusion? It was hopeless to > > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they had > > invested too much in an alternative paradigm. However, they would > > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations. (I doubt > > the strategy was a new one.) > > > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their > > perspective. At the very least you have provided a sample. Thanks for > > taking the time for doing so. > > > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, > > it > > > will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J > > > (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from > > > first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my > > friends > > > in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech > > > http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe > they > > > are convinced of it's power. > > > > > > Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> > > > international.epitech.eu > > > Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech > > > and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has > > > solidified its reputation ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest > in > > > J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in > > the > > > hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between > the > > > time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely > > unsure > > > about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be > > > suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is > the > > > reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to > > myself > > > from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is > > suitable, > > > or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to > be > > > the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with > > > those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am > both > > > extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with > > plenty > > > of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain > the > > > only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the > > first > > > few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so > > in > > > the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my > > > statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, > > more > > > like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me > arrogant > > > because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated > with > > > nor in charge of jsoftware. > > > > > > My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source > > > forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of > optimization > > > for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times > > > that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this > > has > > > even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious > > > doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to > > J's > > > existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends: > > > > > > > > > 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult > to > > > make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to > > > preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt > > > sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be > > renamed. > > > > > > 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. > Some > > > people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of > > > visiting it. > > > > > > 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely > popular > > > nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and > will > > > always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this > prove > > > unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has > > almost > > > no presence on SO. > > > > > > 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an > > abherration: > > > nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to activate > > this > > > and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't all have > much > > > more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be given > logical > > > names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the namespace is > a > > > miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using phrases like '2 > > o. > > > y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need standard > default > > > names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about the miniscule > > > performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent names, the > > > possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more important. > > > > > > 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should > > > certainly not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run > > optimally > > > > > > 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in > > > keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I > > very > > > much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, > > but > > > the website's overall presentation is not good. > > > > > > 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, > > > (not my learning style but for sure they are valuable) > > > > > > 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on > > > jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd > party > > > https://tio.run/#j > > > > > > This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently > > > hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. > > > > > > 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the > > > binary, builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' > should > > > print some example uses of insert and a brief summary) > > > > > > 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank > error' > > > not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending nouns + > > > their ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug > interface, > > > but this shouldn't be necessary. > > > > > > 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many more > > > explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). > > > > > > 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given the > > > current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. > > > > > > > > > Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it > > must > > > lie dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up > > again, > > > in a new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. > > > > > > I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but > things > > > must change, and radically if J is to live. > > > > > > J4 > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
