I wrote: > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J
I should point out that Marshall was a student of Henry Rich; thus, his introduction to J was presumably quite different. The page, Community/Demographics http://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Community/Demographics shows a sample of people that are, or were, using J. A couple of aspects of it, I am afraid, might be providing an ominous corroboration to points made by Andrew Dabrowski and James Faure regarding the question: Where is J going? On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 6:02 PM, Jose Mario Quintana < [email protected]> wrote: > > Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J (correct me if I am > mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can > > He has been with Dyalog APL for several years (AFAIK); he still > contributes to the forums from time to time (although the Dyalog APL > influence is noticeable sometimes). > > > Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in > J, I will try to explain my > understanding of the current situation, in > the hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. > > There is another young person (from my perspective anyway), Marshall > Lochbaum, with an impressive expertise in J and the J Source but he is now > (AFAIK) with... Dyalog APL! He also still contributes to the forum > occasionally. > > I remember overhearing a bunch of world gurus a few decades ago > discussing, while having coffee, tea, and pastries, what needed to be done > to advance in the long run what they believed was a superior but grossly > under-utilized paradigm. What was their conclusion? It was hopeless to > try to convince the rival professors and industry practitioners, they had > invested too much in an alternative paradigm. However, they would > eventually die; the focus should be on the younger generations. (I doubt > the strategy was a new one.) > > To attract younger generations one should try to see things from their > perspective. At the very least you have provided a sample. Thanks for > taking the time for doing so. > > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 9:40 PM, james faure <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Andrew Dabrowski is right. If J continues to steer it's current course, >> it will be quickly forgotten. Roger Hui himself seems to have abandonned J >> (correct me if I am mistaken), in favor of Dyalog APL. I can vouch from >> first hand experience how incredibly difficult it is to interest my friends >> in J and in fact have yet to get a single other person from Epitech >> http://international.epitech.eu/ to learn J, even though I believe they >> are convinced of it's power. >> >> Epitech International<http://international.epitech.eu/> >> international.epitech.eu >> Dear International Students, We will be happy to welcome you to Epitech >> and hope you will enjoy this unique learning experience! Epitech has >> solidified its reputation ... >> >> >> >> Since I seem to be by far the youngest person with a serious interest in >> J, I will try to explain my understanding of the current situation, in the >> hope that it may be useful to jsoftware. I also must say that between the >> time that I heard of J and commited to learning it, I was extremely unsure >> about whether the language would have a future and whether it would be >> suitable to do everything. Ultimately, Henry Rich's success story is the >> reason I am here, without it I would probably still be wondering to myself >> from time to time about J, but without the conviction that it is suitable, >> or worth learning. Project Euler also played a big part, and seems to be >> the main place where people first hear about J nowadays. And even with >> those conditions being met, If I learned J, it is only because I am both >> extremely determined, and was able to complete school projects with plenty >> of spare time. I have shown J to many people at Epitech, but I remain the >> only person who uses it, most of those people never made it past the first >> few steps. The learning curve has to be reduced, and it must be done so in >> the style of this decade. As an aside, on proofreading this, some of my >> statements are harsh, so please keep in mind they are not criticisms, more >> like a plea for help on J's behalf. Also please do not think me arrogant >> because of my convictions. I am well aware that I am not affiliated with >> nor in charge of jsoftware. >> >> My initial statement at the beginning of the long thread in the source >> forum about generators expressed my surprise at J's lack of optimization >> for such a simple case as '>:i.1000x'. I have mentionned multiple times >> that extended precision calculations are simply far too slow, and this has >> even threatened my desire to continue with J by throwing some serious >> doubts on it's ability to satisfy my needs. But the greatest threat to J's >> existence is it's complete failure to keep up with modern trends: >> >> >> 0 The name 'J' is now exposed as being idiotic - it is very difficult to >> make google understand what one means by 'J'. In fact I am forced to >> preface every google search with 'site:jsoftware', which is no doubt >> sufficiently annoying to put off many people. The language must be renamed. >> >> 1 The website looks decades old, and it is difficult to find things. Some >> people I have shown J to abandonned the attempt after a bare minute of >> visiting it. >> >> 2 Stack Overflow, and more generally Q&A resources are extremely popular >> nowadays, most people are simply too lazy to read documentation and will >> always try to formulate their question to google first. Should this prove >> unsuccessful, they are often much less motivated to continue. J has almost >> no presence on SO. >> >> 3 The Foreign's in J and the interface to this are frankly an >> abherration: nobody wants to have to learn or look up all the time how to >> activate this and that foreign, and there is no reason why they shouldn't >> all have much more logical names. In the same vein: the o. family must be >> given logical names like 'cos' 'sin' etc.. The concern of polluting the >> namespace is a miniscule one. I also would urge everyone to stop using >> phrases like '2 o. y', and '6!:2' etc.. but for that to happen, these need >> standard default names, even multiple aliases. Noone cares nowadays about >> the miniscule performance loss associated with having multiple equivalent >> names, the possibility of guessingand have it work anyway is far more >> important. >> >> 4 The SC based system has has got to go.. A modern program should >> certainly not depend on strict formulation rules in order to run optimally >> >> 5 Information needs to be presented differently, and in a way more in >> keeping with modern trends for webdesign. NuVoc is magnificent, and I very >> much appreciate the significant effort that has gone into explaining J, but >> the website's overall presentation is not good. >> >> 6 People nowadays are too lazy to download the qtide and try the labs, >> (not my learning style but for sure they are valuable) >> >> 7 Why isn't there an online Jconsole that can be used interactively, on >> jsoftware's frontpage ?? The closest thing I could find is the 3rd party >> https://tio.run/#j >> >> This comes back to the concept that If Newcomers are not sufficiently >> hooked in within 5 seconds, you lose them forever. >> >> 8 There must be bulitin help in the jconsole. Even if it bloats the >> binary, builtin help is obligatory for J. (something like help '/' should >> print some example uses of insert and a brief summary) >> >> 9 Error messages are incomprehensible to newcomers (why does 'Rank error' >> not also print the offending verb, it's rank, and the offending nouns + >> their ranks ?) - experienced users are happy to use the debug interface, >> but this shouldn't be necessary. >> >> 10 The Jsources are written in a magnificent style, but need many more >> explanations (I understand the jdevs are aware of this). >> >> 11 Developping J-otherlang communication is a good idea, but given the >> current situation it feels like an admission of defeat. >> >> >> Maybe there is no solution for J. Perhaps the timing is wrong, and it >> must lie dormant, biding it's time before one day in the future rising up >> again, in a new form. All we can do now is believe J is worth fighting for. >> >> I close this by saying I have the utmost respect for all Jers, but things >> must change, and radically if J is to live. >> >> J4 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
