I like this one:
2B+D | ! 2B+D? ;-)
P.
At 12:34 PM 7/23/01, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
> >You forgot Shakespear : "to be or not to be"
> >
> >Ole
>
>
>That's algebra, not philosophy, when stated
>
> 2B | !2B
>
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Ole Drews Jensen
> > Systems Network Manager
> > CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
> > RWR Enterprises, Inc.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > http://www.RouterChief.com
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > NEED A JOB ???
> > http://www.oledrews.com/job
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
> >
> >
> >I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an
> >engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device
> >drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding
> >because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders.
> >
> >Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a
> >designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that
> >civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network
> >product developers.
> >
> >But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs,
> >an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability
> >to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to
> >define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism,
> >and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference
> >within easy reach that will give me that information.
> >
> >I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group
> >of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered..."1518...the first in
> >the CIDR RFC series." I was too tired to realize why my colleagues
> >went into hysterics.
> >
> >As to wanting to be,
> >
> > Aristotle: "To be is to do"
> > Nietzsche: "To do is to be"
> > Sinatra: "Do be do be do"
> >
> >>You sounded like an "engineer want a be" and don't have an engineering
> >>degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper
> >>with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone
> >>without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer
> >not
> >>just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong,
to
> >>get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication
> >>too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree.
> >>
> >>Just my 2 cents,
> >>
> >>mark,
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM
> >>To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
> >>
> >>
> >>A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it
> >>successfully.
> >>
> >>not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I
have
> >>seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^%
and
> >>too slow
> >>and when given the project to a so called " plain coder" he has completed
> >>the project
> >>come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software
should
> >>have been
> >>designed in the first place.
> >>
> >>It adds fuel to the fire......... what is valued more a piece of paper
from
> >>uni or a person
> >>with real world experience ???
> >>
> >>Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone
> >>who has real world experience
> >>and knows true engineering ?
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>> Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am
> >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
> >>>
> >>> My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering
>degree
> >>> and
> >>> also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code
base
> >on
> >>> the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree.
> >>>
> >>> my two cents,
> >>>
> >>> mark,
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM
> > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-]
> >>>
> >>> I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever
> >>> mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally
> >>> comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant
> >>> discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an
> >>> argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer
> >>> science program gets into relatively little you need to know to
> >>> design and implement protocols, other than as a coder.
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person.
> >>> There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and
> >> > large network design, but much less with troubleshooting.
> >>>
> >>> Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than
> >>> troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that
> >>> explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and
> >>> performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary
> >>> condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune
> >>> event?
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> >They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find
>many
> >>> >that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a
different
> >>> type
> >>> >of personality.
> >>> >
> >>> >Priscilla
> >>> >
> >>> >At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote:
> >>> >>Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job
> >>> >>discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails
about
> >>> how
> >>> >>CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my
> >signature)
> >>> on
> >>> >>another Cisco list I'm a member of:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Hth,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Ole
> >>> >>
> >>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >> Ole Drews Jensen
> >>> >> Systems Network Manager
> >>> >> CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
> >>> >> RWR Enterprises, Inc.
> >>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >> http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP
> >>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >> NEED A JOB ???
> >>> >> http://www.oledrews.com/job
> >>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Message: 1
> >>> >>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 -0000
> >>> >>From: "JDO" >
> >>> >>Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Hello,
> >>> >>
> >>> >>My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas,
> >>> >>Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing
> >>> >>protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must
> >>> >>be a software engineer and they must be degreed.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an
> >>> >>email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at
> >>> >>972-991-7569.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can
> >>> >>find their site at
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Thanks
> >>> >>
> >>> > >Johnna
________________________
Priscilla Oppenheimer
http://www.priscilla.com
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=13405&t=12805
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