I would rehash what I said before, but I don't really want to type all my arguments all over again.
I suggest you read my post (7:3485) on 10/01/01, topic RE:Is the CCIE really worth it, including all the replies to me, and (especially) all my counter-replies. But I'll put it to you this way. If there are only about 20 JNCIE's in the world, would you publicly post a job that requires it? No, probably not. I know I wouldn't. Why not? Because doing so is a waste a time, it's probably a lot easier just for you to call each JNCIE personally (small numbers let you do such a thing). It would only be 20 phone calls, might not even take you half a day. But anyway, let's consider your numbers: You said you searched on Dice, got 857 hits for Cisco, 24 for Juniper. OK, so that means there are 35 times more jobs for Cisco people than Juniper people. But consider this. There are 6650 CCIE's today, vs. 20 JNCIE's, for a ratio of about 330:1 (but according to Dice, the ratio should only be 35:1, the actual number is almost 10 times as high). So the Dice ratio is blown. Your searches on Monster revealed no JNCIE, fine. But only 96 CCIE hits. All it would take is for JNCIE to show up once, and that ratio is blown too (but unfortunately, you can't divide by zero). Then your search for the keywords revealed 59 Juniper hits, and over 1000 Cisco hits. But according to the ratio above, there would have to be almost 19500 Cisco hits to make the numbers match up (59*330=19450). So that ratio is blown. Basically, using your numbers, but adjusted for supply, Juniper just won 2 out of 3 rounds without breaking a sweat (Dice, and Monster using 'Juniper' and 'Cisco' keywords), and the other round (Monster with 'JNCIE' and 'CCIE' keywords) I consider to be inconclusive. But OK, even if I give Cisco the benefit of the doubt, Juniper has still won 2 out of 3. Now, you might say that the xxIE market is not representative of the entire market for skills, and you need to look at everybody who has Cisco/Juniper skills (not just xxIE people). Unfortunately Juniper doesn't really have a lesser cert like the CCNA/CCNP (the JNCIS is a bit higher than that), but I can't imagine that if you counted the number of people with moderate-level Cisco skill (i.e. CCxP), and the people with moderate Juniper skills (like a JNCNP, if such a thing existed), then I can't believe that it would be very much different than the CCIE vs. JNCIE numbers. So I believe the 330:1 ratio is pretty much around the ballpark. So what does that tell you? Sure, there are more Cisco jobs. I have never disputed such a thing. But on the other hand, there is also a disproportionate amount of competition for those jobs (too much supply) , that far outweighs the demand. According to the numbers you brought out, there would be 10 times more people competing with you for a Cisco job than there would be for a Juniper job. I also must take issue with your contention that the CCIE is more valuable in this economy, because the salary numbers don't like either. I don't want to sound crass and venal, but JNCIE's on average get paid more (sometimes significantly more) than a CCIE. For those who will say that it's not certs that count, it's experience, OK fine - then let me revise that above sentence to say that somebody with a certain amount of skill and experience in Juniper can most likely expect to earn more than somebody else with an equivalent amount of skill and experience in Cisco. For those who still don't believe me, I say "Do the math yourself". It's really as simple as that. You just made a common error - you've only looked at the demand side of the equation, which is misleading. Economics dictates that to measure the value of anything, you need to be looking at both the supply and the demand. This is why being a doctor pays better than manning a cash register, even though the demand for cashiers is higher (how many times do you get sick vs. how many times do you buy something in a store?) Hey, Brad, I know how you feel, and I sympathize. I know what you're going through, because I've been there too. Just maybe 6 months ago, when I first started really hearing about how the Juniper might have a better router, and how the JNCIE program might be a better indicator of guru status, I didn't want to believe it either. I have to admit, I was in a state of denial too. But the more I checked out the facts, the more incontrovertible they looked. I have twisted this subject around in my head many times over and over, and, believe me, I wanted to come up with a reasonable scenario where Cisco wins out. But you can only fight it for so long. ""Brad Ellis"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Quick analysis: > > Do a search on Monster (as broad as possible) with CCIE as the keyword. How > many hits? 96 as of 10/27/01 9:51EST. > Now lets do a search on Monster (as broad as possible) for JNCIE (or JNCIS) > as the keyword. How many hits? ZERO! ZILCH! NADA! > > Okay, now lets do a search with Juniper as the keyword. How many hits? 59 > Hits using Cisco as the keyword, more than 1000! (it wouldnt give me the > total amount, just said more than 1000). > > Now, onto dice.com. Search on CCIE, 74 hits. Search with JNCIE (or JNCIS) > ZERO. Search on Cisco, 857 hits. Search on Juniper, 24 hits. > > Moral of the story for people reading this thread: DONT LET A FEW BAD > APPLES SCARE YOU OFF. The CCIE is still MUCH MORE valuable than the Juniper > certification in today's economy. Could this change in the next few years? > Yes. Will it change? Who knows. But for the time being (as far as getting > a job is concerned), I'd recommend getting a CCIE over a Juniper cert every > day of the week and twice on Sunday! > > Network Learning deals with employers and CCIE candidates on a daily basis. > Currently, from our conversations with these people, corporate America is > not distinguishing between the different CCIE tracks; ie, if someone is > looking for a CCIE, at least 19 times out of 20, they dont care if it's an > R&S CCIE vs. a Security CCIE, etc. The R&S and Security tracks are still > too closely related to where it would really make a big difference. It > looks like the Security lab is just an R&S lab with a PIX thrown into the > mix (I havent taken the security lab yet, so I can't be a 100% certain, but > nor can I be breaking the NDA). Until that changes, I dont think there is a > huge advantage of getting the Security CCIE vs. the R&S CCIE as relates to > corporate America. However, I feel that this is one of the things that > COULD possibly change within the next 1-2 years (assuming there becomes more > distingushing factors between the two different tracks and corporate America > sees value in that). > > Dont have second thoughts about going after your CCIE. Put your whole heart > into and go "BALLS OUT!" It is a great stepping stone and accomplishment > for anyone in the networking industry. Don't let the misconceptions of a > few people discourage you. Good luck. > > thanks, > -Brad Ellis > CCIE#5796 > Network Learning Inc > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > used Cisco gear: www.optsys.net > CCIE Labs, racks, and classes: www.ccbootcamp.com > ""nrf"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Here's my thoughts > > > > * Yes, I know several CCIE's who are having trouble finding work. And > yes, > > I know one guy who has 2 CCIE's (R/S and ISPDial) who is having trouble > > finding work. For those of you who think it might be due to lack of > > experience, the guys I am talking about have at least 5 years of > experience, > > and the dual-guy has more than 10, including more than 5 at Cisco as an > SE. > > > > * My understanding is that the one-day lab is significantly harder than > the > > older 2-day lab. But of course, this might be compensated for by the fact > > that the wait list will be shorter (eventually). > > > > * I don't know that Cisco has too many CCIE tracks. Right now there are 3 > > active tracks. This is like the old days of the program, when they also > > used to have 3 (R/S, ISP-Dial, WAN) [Note, Ok, in the really old days, I > > know there used to be only the R/S]. But I remember at one point last > year > > or so, there were actually 5 active tracks (R/S, ISP-Dial, WAN, Design, > > SNA/IP). Now that really was too many tracks. > > > > * You're right, why bother (esp. with the R/S)? Sorry guys, I know this > > sounds harsh, and I know that I'm going to get flamed for this, but if I > had > > to do it all over again, I don't know that I would try to get the R/S. > > > > Now by that, let me be clear. There is nothing wrong with learning the > R/S > > material. That is always good. Everybody should learn the material that > > the R/S guy knows. But as far as doing actual test prep - getting my > > typing and configuration speed up so that I can set up BGP and OSPF in 10 > > minutes, actually paying for the test and travelling to the test site, I > > don't know that I would put myself through that again unless it was worth > > it. Let's face it. This isn't 1998-1999 anymore. Who knows when, or > even > > if, things will get better? Particularly when there is probably a much > > more valuable cert program out there. Which is why I am moving on to ... > > > > * Juniper. I don't think the same market forces hold for Juniper, at > least > > not to the same degree. The Juniper market is much less saturated than > the > > Cisco market. Consider this - there are about 6650 CCIE's out there, of > > which probably about 6400 are R/S'ers. Right now there are 20 JNCIE's. > So > > despite the fact that the demand for Juniper skills is smaller, I have a > > very difficult time believing it is 320 times smaller. You can check > out > > my old post (7:3485, posted 10/1/01, on Re:Is the CCIE really worth it), > > where I discuss this subject at length. > > > > > > ""Chuck Larrieu"" wrote in message > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > > for those who've never seen one in their adult working lives, yeah, this > > is > > > a serious downturn, and yeah, the economy is bad right now. Don't > worry - > > > skilled people can always find work. there are going to be a lot of > > > structural changes over the next few years. Keep your skills up. Keep a > > good > > > attitude. Keep reading, and practicing and thinking. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 3:30 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: is it really bad market for ccie ? [7:24297] > > > > > > > > > some one (lots of them ) said it's really hard to find job in networking > > > even for ccie or dual ccie ,is it really true people ? > > > the 1 day lab is really getting harder (much harder than the 2 day) and > > > cisco has to many ccie track now ,why bother getting ccie security or > com > > > when one can not get a job, ccie of ...hope maybe > > > same thing for juniper i guess > > > 2 months ago i really looking forward to my lab but now i'm having > second > > > though . > > > just my 2 cent Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=24339&t=24336 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
