"nrf" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > Aha. Here is the fundamental difference between you and me. > > The fact is, certifications are not really an effective foot-in-the-door, > contrary to popular belief. Yeah yeah, would-be flamers, I just got your > attention, didn't I? I can already hear you guys reaching for your > keyboards. But hear me out. > > The fact is, certs are indeed useful to get publicly posted jobs. You know, > the jobs where you have to send out a resume which then gets parsed through > HR who look for certain keywords. Those keywords are often technologies, > but are also often certs. It is indeed the case that to get your > 'foot-in-the-door' in these kinds of jobs, you need present the proper > keywords, which often means presenting the right kind of certs. > > However, consider this. CNN and other reputable news organization have > stated that over 90% of all available jobs are never posted publicly, > especially nowadays, and especially in the tech industry. Study after study > has shown that far and away the most common and preferred method for > companies to find people is through employee referral. Surely you've heard > the phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know."
I don't agree (surprise surprise) with most of what was said above. Although I would love more concrete information other than "they say.... 90% of all jobs...", I would agree that many jobs, especially in the tech industry, don't always make it to the public. However, I would have to believe that by "the public" it means a company doesn't directly solicit candidates, yet instead goes to a consulting/contract firm. Fact is, most companies have policies that say they *have* to post a job publicly for 'x' amount of time, so it VERY doubtful that jobs that aren't posted to the public are full-time hires (even when the jobs don't make it to the public, they're usually restricted to hiring an internal candidate unless the jobs is posted publicly)...... but instead most contract jobs that could potentially turn into a full-time employment gig (even if they have to post a job for x amount of time just to satisfy requirements). Furthermore, in those situations (I'm claiming is a large part of that 90%) where the jobs are filled by consulting firms, those companies are the ones that DO get to charge more for people with those certs..... those are the companies there those certs ARE the foot in the door.... (speaking of contract firms), I've noticed that regardless of certs or experience, it seems many more places are doing a "6-month right-to-hire" because it's so hard to really tell from a resume, certs, experience, or even an interview if someone really knows what they're doing. So a 6-month trial period usually is plenty for them to see if the person has the mettle or not. > In fact, surely you're seen all those books and all those websites that tell > people how to find jobs. What's the first piece of advice that they always > give? The first thing they always say is "use your network". It's not "get > proper certs" or "type up a really good resume". Those things are like 5th > or 6th on the list, but never first. The first thing is always "use your > network". Why is that? I think this speaks to the importance of having > the proper contacts. It truly is far and away the most effective way to > find work. Where did "get some experience" fall into that list? I guess that's not as important at "using your network"...... Seems to be it would be tho....... > And the simple fact is, when you get jobs this way, certs become a > relatively minor consideration. When the boss comes down and asks his > people whether they know somebody with such-and-such skill, your colleague > generally doesn't care whether you hold a cert or whatever - he either > thinks you're good (because he's worked with you before and he knows that > you're good) and will therefore recommend you, or he doesn't and he won't. > And if you do get recommended by your colleague, you have effectively > leapfrogged HR and their whole keyword-parsing step. Employees usually > don't want to professionally embarrass themselves by bringing in somebody > that they don't think is good, so the fact that you did get brought in for > an interview is already a powerful quality-control mechanism that the boss > can rely upon. Is it a perfect quality-control mechanism? No of course > not, there is no perfect mechanism. But it's been shown to be a lot more > reliable than anything else, and certainly more reliable than certs are. > The proof of this is simple - companies continue to rely on such references > for over 90% of their positions, which probably means that it's highly > effective, otherwise they should have stopped doing things this way by now. Personally, I've worked way too many places that worked on the "buddy system" (i.e. company that ends up hiring a friend of a friend just because they're friends instead of hiring a perfectly good candidate)..... So, sorry..... no way you're ever going to convince me that this is the best way for the system to work...... (not to say that you are trying to convince me of that......) > > I am by no means a "certification religion" person. You speak of > > maintaining an open mind but from your comments, it's easy to see that > your > > blinders are on as tightly as can be. > > Careful, buddy. You just came dangerously close to a personal attack. Note > that I've never personally attacked you. I'll let it slide this time, but > don't put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion on something, why not > just ask me, instead of assuming that I think a certain way? What words did I put in your mouth? Please show them to me, because when I read my statement (above), I don't see myself misquoting anything you've said. I don't see myself falsely claiming that you said things you didn't say. This was by NO MEANS a personal attack. I simply stated MY OPINION that you speak of open mindedness, yet to me don't seem very openminded on this issue. I'm not trying to change your viewpoint. And I don't believe your intent is to change mine. However, when you start speaking about "certification religion" people you have NO place to then get upset when someone gives their opinion about you and your opinions. Just to be clear, if you give your opinions about others (thoughts and opinions), then it's fair game for them to give theirs about yours. > >You only see things from your > > point-of-view, and no amount of logical reasoning will convince you that > > your point-of-view isnt' always the best for other people. You fail to > > realize and admit that there are many different ways that certifications > can > > help and can be used in ones career path. > > Did I say that? Please point to a quote where I've specifically said that > certifications absolutely cannot help ones career path. This isn't the first time you've used this "Did I say that?" tactic.... >From a previous thread here in groupstudy: ---------------- > You seem very jealous about ppl having a CCIE certifications, or at least > demoralizing ppl not to take CCIE if not 50 years old with rich networking > experience. Really? Did I say that? Please provide me instances where I have typed such a thing. Don't put words in my mouth. ---------------- You take the word "say" literally. Too literally. This would be like a politician saying "I believe women should stay home and take care of the home" then later a reporter asks "Why do you feel women shouldn't have a job?", the politician could easily say "Did I say that? Please show me where I said that exact statement.... Don't put words in my mouth." Same thing here...... You spoke your opinion on a topic, then when someone summarized your viewpoint in different words, you said "Did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth." The person writing the original statement in the above excerpt was basically giving their interpretation of what you were saying (and I agree with what he claims your viewpoint was because that's the same feeling that I and I'm sure many other readers got from your comments). Can I point to a quote where you've said that certifications asboloutely cannot help? No. I doubt you've ever said that exact phrase. However, I strongly believe that if a person, not participating in this group, were to come in and read all of your posts on this topic in the last few weeks, they could not help but to undoubtedly say that you do not hold certification in high regard and champion experience as the eternal trump to certifications. You know what? I believe that good solid experience is the best thing for a job candidate to have. I agree with you on that point. But, to me, experience isn't the same as "good solid" experience. (please refer to my previous posts regarding the comments about how 5 years experience many times is the same 1 year over and over).. > Look, I'm obviously not your father, and I don't want to tell you how to run > your life. But surely you would agree that getting a job because you know > the right people, and because they know that you're good, is a more > effective method of finding work. I would agree that getting to know people in your field, and gaining their respect and "networking" (in the social sense) is a good way to help your career along. But even networking is worthless if you don't have the knowledge and skills...... IMHO.... nrf, we have gone back and forth on this issue plenty. I'm worn out from it....... literally..... we need to hook up for a couple of beers (assuming you like beers) and talk this over.... Sometimes a 'back-n-forth' in text format is soooo tiring =). Like I said, we're not trying to change each other and I know we wouldn't succeed if that were our goal. We need to agree to disagree and make a gentlemans agreement not to respond to any future posts on this topic, lest we start up on each other again. I have no doubt that you have nothing but the best intentions (as do I), and I have no doubt that you have your viewpoint because of your experiences and situations throughout your career. Just remember that many of us also have those same good intentions and experiences, so just because we don't agree doesn't mean that one is any less valid than the other...... just different. Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=45196&t=44611 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
