""Michael L. Williams"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > "nrf" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > Well, I don't know if it's a waste of time. Consider this. There might > be > > some newbie guys who were all gung-ho about grabbing a bunch of certs > > because they believed that by doing so they would just be handed a > > super-kick-ass job (no doubt some training school told them so). Now > > perhaps after reading these threads they may be getting a whole new > > appreciation for exactly what certs can and cannot do for them, and they > may > > be rethinking their whole strategy, and perhaps even stop studying and > > instead concentrate on building their experience first. > > Actually, in the case you pointed out, if someone stops studying to > concentrate on building experience first, then I believe you have done those > people a great disservice. > > Many people use certifications as a "foot in the door" into a network career > from other careers. We've agreed (many times) that just because one gets a > certifications that their not entitled to a high level job with lots of > money, but at the same time, a certification can be the difference between > getting that foot in the door or not. If ones goal is to use certifications > to prove a certain level of knowledge and abilities in an attempt to get > into the field, then steering them in the direction of "get experience > first, then worry about certs later" is exactly the opposite of what could > potentially help them the most.
Aha. Here is the fundamental difference between you and me. The fact is, certifications are not really an effective foot-in-the-door, contrary to popular belief. Yeah yeah, would-be flamers, I just got your attention, didn't I? I can already hear you guys reaching for your keyboards. But hear me out. The fact is, certs are indeed useful to get publicly posted jobs. You know, the jobs where you have to send out a resume which then gets parsed through HR who look for certain keywords. Those keywords are often technologies, but are also often certs. It is indeed the case that to get your 'foot-in-the-door' in these kinds of jobs, you need present the proper keywords, which often means presenting the right kind of certs. However, consider this. CNN and other reputable news organization have stated that over 90% of all available jobs are never posted publicly, especially nowadays, and especially in the tech industry. Study after study has shown that far and away the most common and preferred method for companies to find people is through employee referral. Surely you've heard the phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know." In fact, surely you're seen all those books and all those websites that tell people how to find jobs. What's the first piece of advice that they always give? The first thing they always say is "use your network". It's not "get proper certs" or "type up a really good resume". Those things are like 5th or 6th on the list, but never first. The first thing is always "use your network". Why is that? I think this speaks to the importance of having the proper contacts. It truly is far and away the most effective way to find work. And the simple fact is, when you get jobs this way, certs become a relatively minor consideration. When the boss comes down and asks his people whether they know somebody with such-and-such skill, your colleague generally doesn't care whether you hold a cert or whatever - he either thinks you're good (because he's worked with you before and he knows that you're good) and will therefore recommend you, or he doesn't and he won't. And if you do get recommended by your colleague, you have effectively leapfrogged HR and their whole keyword-parsing step. Employees usually don't want to professionally embarrass themselves by bringing in somebody that they don't think is good, so the fact that you did get brought in for an interview is already a powerful quality-control mechanism that the boss can rely upon. Is it a perfect quality-control mechanism? No of course not, there is no perfect mechanism. But it's been shown to be a lot more reliable than anything else, and certainly more reliable than certs are. The proof of this is simple - companies continue to rely on such references for over 90% of their positions, which probably means that it's highly effective, otherwise they should have stopped doing things this way by now. What that means is that if you got brought in for one of these 'hidden' jobs (where such jobs are the vast majority of the available jobs), the boss already knows that you're probably pretty good (because otherwise it is unlikely that you would have been referred in the first place), and can proceed with the interview based on that information. For example, he may run a few more tech questions by you just to double-check your tech skills, and he may ask you social questions to see if your personality is OK for the job (but again, obviously your personality was OK with whoever referred you, so if that's true, then it is probably true that your personality should be OK with everybody else). But the point is, a lot of the preliminary work in ascertaining whether you're a good worker or not has already been done. Certs now become only a very minor consideration. If you already got to this step, having or not having a cert is unlikely to play a huge role. Quite frankly, I know few if any people in my circle of peers who haven't used this "trick" (ir you want to call it a trick), at least occassionally. Ever since the shi* hit the fan in the year 2000, all of my contracts have been obtained through references, as is the case of most of the guys I know (either contracts or full-time work). Makes perfect sense too, as over 90% of the jobs out there are obtained this way, not publicly. For example, I have a friend who's simply an Oracle Database God (worked for Oracle in the mid-80's, and actually played basketball with Larry Ellison a few times). He holds zero Oracle certs. But he gets Oracle contracts time and time again simply because people keep recommending him because they all know he's good. I, for example, would have absolutely no problem in recommending him for any Oracle db work. So I would agree with you that certs are indeed important for those publicly posted jobs. But again, that's at most 10% of the jobs out there. So I question why people place so much emphasis on credentials that are really only useful in landing the minority of jobs out there. Why fixate on that 10%? Wouldn't it be more efficient to be going after that 90% instead? So again, this is another reason why experience is so valuable. People think that experience is useful just for technical skills. Yet, that is only part of it. Another part is developing acceptable general work attitudes and maturity, like for example learning just how important it is to simply show up to work on time (I discussed this at length in a previous post). But yet another part is being given the opportunity to meet people and build your contact list. The more people you meet, the better chance you have in being able to get access to that vast majority of available jobs. So what does this mean for the novice? Obviously what I've stated above is most applicable to guys who already have a bit of experience and therefore already have some opportunities to build their contacts. But there is definitely some applicability to novices as well. It could mean a number of things. If you already have a non-network job in a company, but you want to be the network guy, then make time to go hang out with the network guys. Make yourself known to them. You can show them how enthusiastic you are, you can tell them that you're looking for a career change and could you maybe hang around them while they're doing network changes, etc. Stuff like that. Or it could mean not to turn your nose up at some low-level work because you think it's beneath you. A lot of novices complain that they can't find entry-level work. This is false. What they actually mean to say is that they can't find good-paying entry-level work. Everybody can find work as a volunteer for example, at a local charity or a church or something like that. Look at it as a way of building your professional contacts. For example, let's say you set up a simple network for your local church, strictly as a volunteer. The priest there will probably remember you and later when some parishioner happens to say that he's looking for a network guy, the priest might interject that he knows Joe Shmoe who did a nice job here, and why don't you call him up, etc. etc. That's the way the game is played. > > > So you could say > > that in these cases, these threads have not only not wasted people's time, > > they have actually saved people's time. > > > > Then of course, there are those guys who've already made up their minds > > about what they want to do and don't want to hear what anybody else has to > > say (I call them the "certification religion" people). But I'd like to > > think that some people do indeed maintain an open mind about these kinds > of > > things. > > I am by no means a "certification religion" person. You speak of > maintaining an open mind but from your comments, it's easy to see that your > blinders are on as tightly as can be. Careful, buddy. You just came dangerously close to a personal attack. Note that I've never personally attacked you. I'll let it slide this time, but don't put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion on something, why not just ask me, instead of assuming that I think a certain way? >You only see things from your > point-of-view, and no amount of logical reasoning will convince you that > your point-of-view isnt' always the best for other people. You fail to > realize and admit that there are many different ways that certifications can > help and can be used in ones career path. Did I say that? Please point to a quote where I've specifically said that certifications absolutely cannot help ones career path. What I've said is that certifications do not help as much as many people think they do. And experience helps more than people often think it does. It's a matter of emphasis. When I've said that certifications are not as valuable as experience, notice that I never said that certs have zero value. Just less than what is commonly believed. Again, see above. Certs are most effective in landing publicly posted jobs. Unfortunately, that's at most 10% of the available jobs. Now I'm not saying that people should ignore that 10%, but it seems that people should also be aware that there is this 90% out there also. >You assume that by encouraging > one to work on experience and worry about certs later is the best thing > someone can do, but many times it's not. I knew 9 months before we moved to > a much bigger town that I wanted to change over into networking. So given > my experience in desktop/server admin, etc and knowledge of networking, I > saw that getting CCNA/DA and working on CCNP would look much better to an > employer looking to hire someone into an entry level Cisco job than just my > experience alone. In that case the certification was a sign to the employer > that I understand what the OSI is... understand the difference between > switches and routers.... understand how to log into a router and get into > enable mode and do basic commands. That's exactly what the certification is > meant for, and that's exactly how I used it. Now, I'm much more into > networking, have been doing it a while, and am studying for CCIE lab....... > At this point, I'm not doing a cert for anyone else but me. To help improve > me... Look, I'm obviously not your father, and I don't want to tell you how to run your life. But surely you would agree that getting a job because you know the right people, and because they know that you're good, is a more effective method of finding work. Again, like I said, that's the way you play the game. To do otherwise is to severely restrict your set of career choices (to that 10%). See above. Now, note, none of this is to say that certs don't hold value. Certs do hold some value. I'll say it again, certs do have some value. But so does having a PalmPilot full of good contacts and references. > > So it's all, again, just a matter of perspective. > > Mike W. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=45170&t=44611 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
